Thread: Coticule chronicles

It seems like his experiment is old news. Sorry about that. I've been reading through old posts but didn't catch this one.

Tim didn't infer anything about actual shaving results from his experiment. All he referred to was polishing and "moving metal" with the Coticule. It's really I who took it to another step. I would think something that moves metal so well, coupled with other honing and/or stropping techniques should give a great edge. Of course, that takes experimentation with pressure, surface (dry, wet, slurry), and the use of pastes and/or leather. Some blades might simply require little pressure, dry honing, and leather stropping. Another blade might need dry, wet, and slurry honing, before a pasted strop, AND a leather strop to get that great edge.

Isn't honing all about moving metal in some capacity? Either you want more teeth for sharpness or less teeth for smoothness. To me the experiment shows that as a precursor to everything else, the Coticule is a great stone. If you're bad at stropping or you can't notice how your specific razor reacts to the dry vs. wet surface, then obviously you've got a problem. I'm not saying the Coticule is the only way to get a great edge but if everything's equal - same blade, same amount of stropping, etc. - with a little tinkering on the honing technique, you should get a great edge.

Remember, I am a straight razor newbie. Don't all open the flood gates at once if I'm wrong..

Telly,

Don't worry, we won't bite. Sorry if I came across like I was jumping on you. Not my intention at all--I like the analytical approach you're taking. Thinking before doing usually means less time doing before you get it right.

You're right: Tim didn't present conclusions. He just put the pictures out there. The thread got a little heated after that as people tried to assign different meanings to the pictures.

One thing to remember is that metal removal is only part of the equation. Actually, hones that remove metal more slowly tend to polish better, in my opinion.

Each little grit particle in a hone bites into the metal during a stroke. "Slower" stones tend to have less aggressive particles--they're more rounded rather than sharp and jagged. So they leave shallower scratches, creating a more even, polished surface. More aggressive hones can remove the metal too quickly, creating a weak edge that we call an "overhoned" edge. (These hones can be very effective if used properly, but they take a little more practice to get the hang of.)

The thing I like about the Belgian hones is their slowness, in fact. I like the idea of getting a good edge on the lower grits and then gently polishing it.

It seems to work really well for me, although I might be misinterpreting what's actually going on.

Keep thinkin',
Josh

You weren't offensive at all. I was just preparing for the worse.

The guy who holds the Guinness World Record for Fastest Shave with a Double Bit Axe knows a fair bit about what it takes to make an edge sharp. He is a big advocate of dry honing. I have dry honed with Arkansas stones and it works pretty well. I've studied the photos Tim Zowada took of the dry vs. wet honed coticules. Clearly the dry honed razor is shinier and has fewer scratches than the wet honed razor. People who have tried both methods with the coticules have reported fast removal of steel with the dry method but better shaves with the wet method.

The Belgians say that it's the slurry which does the honing. They advocate a milk-consistency slurry. Certainly you can abrade the steel against the dry stone and get a good polish. Look at the consistency of the particles and the size of the particles of the coticule vs. the other stones. The coticule is very consistent in particle size and height off of the stone body. Dry honing works. BUT, is that the whole story?

Apparently the polished edge from the dry honing doesn't cut whiskers as well as the wet honed edge. Why? I think it's because of the scratches in the steel making teeth on the edge of the blade which grab the whiskers and then slice them off. Polished edges just don't have the tooth. I say "teeth" but they're not really very coarse and in fact are very fine. "Polish" is also a very relative term. The strop aligns those teeth and I think that's why I've come to use natural leather. Barbers have recommended that to me and I've tried it and it works.

Thank you for this great post, Howard!

I am very glad, because it seems to support my personal impressions. Since Tim posted the photos, I have been experimenting with dry Belgian (and dry Y/G Escher) hones on a few razors. Honestly - I didn't see improvements, actually I think the edges were worse than before. As I have said, I pass HHT from wet coticule, and dry laps after this didn't improve the edge in either tests or actual shaving.

However, several people claimed their edges improved significantly with dry coticule. So I was continuing to experiment for myself. The difficulty is that the comparison is very subjective - how the edge felt before the dry hone, etc. - not possible to really quantify this and use it with much confidence... Anyway, I was already coming to the opinion that I do prefer edges, which were honed with at least some water (heavier slurry to start, thinned to finish). Your post makes me feel better - guess I was not just imagining my dry hone results (which I doubted for a while)

For others interested in experimentation - dry Escher didn't seem to work much better than wet / slurry either (for me, at least).

One final guess: if people noticed improvements with the dry hone - maybe the razor just needed the exrta laps to get to that higher level of sharpness?

However: this opens a big question - how about the 30K Shapton? It should produce an extremely polished edge, and several esteemed shavers are thrilled with it. Very interesting!

Cheers
Ivo

Howard and Ivo,

Are you saying dry honing after slurry honing will not improve the blade and possibly make it worse? Should I be dry honing then move on to slurry honing?

Thanks

Originally Posted by TstebinsB

Howard and Ivo,

Are you saying dry honing after slurry honing will not improve the blade and possibly make it worse? Should I be dry honing then move on to slurry honing?

Thanks

Telly,

I can only speak for myself - and I am still experimenting.

All I can say, is that dry coticule and Escher have not really given me anything better than what I get with water. It does feel different on the hone, and maybe I (and others) imagine this means it works more. We have also seen the photos from TIm. However, HHT and shave tests show dry is not helping ME (it may work for someone else!) = after I get a great edge with water, using a dry hone does not improve it at all.

In my book - yes, dry work after a good edge is achieved with water does make the edge a bit worse. So does slurry, which is too thick

I have been experimenting mostly in the final stages of honing, so starting on dry - can't say much. I have done it, but not too many times.

Cheers
Ivo

I'm continuing to play around with the three finishing approaches I mentioned--dry, wet (no slurry) and with lather.

I have to agree with Ivo and Howard that, on balance, the edges from the wet coticule shave the smoothest. The edge I got from using lather gave me mild razor burn. The dry-honed edge seems to shave a little rougher.

However, I did find that dry honing on my Dovo got it sharp when the wet honing didn't seem to be working as well. The dry-honed edges do better on the HHT, and my guess is that they're slightly coarser than the plain water edge.

I haven't tried using a light slurry yet, although I think I will. Up to this point I've been using a milky slurry like Howard described, and I find that the edge from that doesn't shave very comfortably.

I'm glad other guys are trying some of this stuff out, although I think we're just confirming the traditional wisdom.

Josh

I thought I'd clarify something: Ivo mentioned dry honing after wet honing produced worse results, and I think that makes sense. The barber manuals recommend using water and then lather for progressively finer edges.

The dry honed edge I tried was honed on the Belgian blue and then "finished" on the dry coticule. To me, this felt like a less fine edge than what I get when I finish with plain water.

Josh

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

I thought I'd clarify something: Ivo mentioned dry honing after wet honing produced worse results, and I think that makes sense. The barber manuals recommend using water and then lather for progressively finer edges.

The dry honed edge I tried was honed on the Belgian blue and then "finished" on the dry coticule. To me, this felt like a less fine edge than what I get when I finish with plain water.

Josh

Josh,

It makes sense if you trust / follow the barber manuals I do, in general.

However, I think several people here claimed that they had better results using the coticule dry after they trried water and didn't get good results. I was experimenting trying to duplicate this. So far - unsuccessfully. My hypothesis - if they did get an improvement, the edge was not that great to begin with, and it improved by getting extra laps. Or maybe something about the texture and feel of the dry coticule allowed these people to have a better edge contact and overall more useful passes.

Cheers
Ivo