Thread: Bevel setting issue in the middle

Trust me here they are not straight They are heel forward X strokes

and if you are having a Frown problem you want to hone toward a smile,, There are two ways to do that I recommend the Swooping X stroke, basically hone the blade like it already has a smile and you will avoid the "Frowns"

Ok thanks. Will give that a try and see what it does. Will this frown go away by doing the rolling and swooping x's?

Another more brute force method is to raise the spine off of the hone and do 1/2 x-strokes (up and down the hone with out flipping) until the frown is gone then go on to normal rolling x-strokes to set the bevel

From the pix, that blade doesn't look all that bad. I would avoid doing anything drastic there, like bread-knifing, as that will risk to open up a Pandora's box. Rolling-Xs consistently applied should do the trick. (I suppose the "swooping X-stroke" is a more extreme version of this.) Rather than strive for aesthetics right now (i.e., honing out visible frown), seek to get the edge to pass the TNT on the 1k, go a little bit further with it just to be sure, and then move up, using the same rolling X-stroke throughout the process. Gradually, the frown will work its way out with use like this.

Also, a way to check for frown that I was shown was to place the toe up against a door molding with the edge perpendicular to the molding. Then, line up the eye with the edge near the heel and look down the edge towards the toe. Any frown (or smile) should be more easily visible that way do to a paring down of the variables.

Originally Posted by Mikali

Ok thanks. Will give that a try and see what it does. Will this frown go away by doing the rolling and swooping x's?

Yes

If applied correctly

Something to remember here is the Bevel is "Off" and the Spine may be off also

What you might try is to add a second layer of tape to negate any issues with the spine, this allows you to concentrate on getting the bevel even.. Once the bevel is even you can drop back to 1 layer of tape during your next honing sessions and it should all work out if you keep honing Toward a smile..

Personally I have never really used a Rocking/Rolling X I find the Heel forward Swooping motion much easier to control and to use when correcting bevels

Keep in mind I do a ton of these corrections so I want the most consistent method that I can use to do them.. There are other ways to make it happen, but after taking out so many of the Bumpity Bump Bevels people put in using a Rolling/Rocking X incorrectly I just don't use it...

To each their own


This thread might give you some hints too

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-you-leap.html

Originally Posted by Mikali

I was given the advise to check for a frown on another forum as well.
So I put my edge on my shapton and hold it into the light and bingo !
At that spot I'm noticing there is very minor, maybe just 1mm or so, light getting through.
So I'm guessing this is a very small frown.
Most likely I caused this myself when trying out my coticule (small one) a few years back.
That was the reason I didn't use the razor that much anymore as I couldn't get it sharp again.

I've googled the frown and what I mostly see in pics and video's is waaaay worse then my razor.

So will doing rolling x's overcome the issue and fix the bevel? Or will I have to do something else ?

The frown in the middle could have been there from factory because Dovo use a rotary hone to set the bevel and the hone is slightly convexe to hit all the poins of the bevel...

or...and this is highly more likely...

YOu put the froun there when applying pressure with your fingers.
One should never apply pressure to the blade unless you know exactly what you are dooing.

Ok so i read the whole topic.

The problem(s) is(are) relatively simple.

1) Your blade has a slight warp to it from the factory.

it twists from heel to tip counterclockwise.

This gives you slightly wider bevel on the back towards the tip and slightly thiner bevels on the back towards the heel.

The face of the razor responds to this change in geometry with the oposite effect on the bevel...like a mirror.
thiner at the tip and slightly thicker at the heel.

2) A frown is usualy obtained when honing on a hone that is not flat but convex!
This is not unusual at Dovo because they use a rotary machine with slightly convex hones to tit all the points of the bevel in one pass.

But luckly this is not the case here...

WHY?
...well because if there would have beel overhoning on a convex hone the spine would have had to show som pronounced honeware in the middle.

ANY ABNORMALITY IN BEVEL WIDTH HAS A CORESPONDANT IN SPINEWARE!

But....why not here?
...well because you put the froun there when you panicked and try to get the middle of the blade - bevel to touch the hone. You applied finger pressure and all you did is practicalt make the fone eat metal faster there....when you should have been pushing at the spine actualy...removing metal from the spine would have lowered the angle of the blade and eventualy the bevel would have come down to stone level!

This works well at the tip and heel...in the middle of the blade it's tricky.


So there is no corespondent spineware to the frown because the hollow flexed under the pressure you applied and you fed the bevel to the hone...the spine stayed flat the whole time.

There is a good news to this...a correct Breadknife maneuver could fix it fast BUT...the frown is so small you can ride it out on the hone!

So let's get to fixing it.

Saphire marker and a flat hone!

Step 1.

Some people dont realise that spending excess time on the hones trying to correct problems actualy wares your hone uneven and using them on a corect razor afterwards ma leed to further problems.....so if a stone especialy a bevel setter is used to correct geometry problems....flaten it before using on a good razor or at least check if it is flat!...they require flattening more often...that is why i recomend spending the minimum ammount of time on the hones and always try to undertand the problem taht needs correcting before starting to correct it! Once you set on correcting it ...do it while removing the minimum ammount of metal!

So step one check if the stone is still flat...if not flaten it!

Step 2.

Use the Saphire marker to apply a coat of colour on bevels and spineware on both sides of the blade.

Few ppl know that the Saphire technique can be used both as a diagnostic test and as a stroke calibrtion test.
Most use it to see where the blade touches the hone.

This test can also be used to calibrte your stroke.

On ths kind of blades Rolling X strokes +/- targeted finger pressure are required.

Start with a normal rolling X stroke on both sides...then STOP and look at where the hone eats steel away.
Now calibrate your stroke...

If it misses a spot towards the tip/heel...apply pressure on the spine coresponding to that area....not the edge!
if it misses a spot in the middle of the blade like in your case....apply equal presure to the whole spine and have patience...when it starts to eat away the marker in the middle you can ease up on the pressure or apply a thin layer of tape to prevent further spineware....

Re apply the marker any time you need to and always think your next steps.

Idealy stroke calibration should be done when honing a new to you razor...it helps you learn the correct stroke to use on that specific razor....so it helps you spend less time on the hones and remove less metal.

I use it especialy before honing smyling razors and old english and french razors as well as new solingen razors...because of frequent geometry issues.
I practicaly aim to find the type of stroke that removes all the marker on the bevel from heel to toe...then i memorize it and repeat it troughout the progression to finisher.


There are many things to discuss about blade geometry but this should get you on the right road.

Hope it helps.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

Ok so i read the whole topic.

The problem(s) is(are) relatively simple.

1) Your blade has a slight warp to it from the factory.

it twists from heel to tip counterclockwise.

This gives you slightly wider bevel on the back towards the tip and slightly thiner bevels on the back towards the heel.

The face of the razor responds to this change in geometry with the oposite effect on the bevel...like a mirror.
thiner at the tip and slightly thicker at the heel.

2) A frown is usualy obtained when honing on a hone that is not flat but convex!
This is not unusual at Dovo because they use a rotary machine with slightly convex hones to tit all the points of the bevel in one pass.

But luckly this is not the case here...

WHY?
...well because if there would have beel overhoning on a convex hone the spine would have had to show som pronounced honeware in the middle.

ANY ABNORMALITY IN BEVEL WIDTH HAS A CORESPONDANT IN SPINEWARE!

But....why not here?
...well because you put the froun there when you panicked and try to get the middle of the blade - bevel to touch the hone. You applied finger pressure and all you did is practicalt make the fone eat metal faster there....when you should have been pushing at the spine actualy...removing metal from the spine would have lowered the angle of the blade and eventualy the bevel would have come down to stone level!

This works well at the tip and heel...in the middle of the blade it's tricky.


So there is no corespondent spineware to the frown because the hollow flexed under the pressure you applied and you fed the bevel to the hone...the spine stayed flat the whole time.

There is a good news to this...a correct Breadknife maneuver could fix it fast BUT...the frown is so small you can ride it out on the hone!

So let's get to fixing it.

Saphire marker and a flat hone!

Step 1.

Some people dont realise that spending excess time on the hones trying to correct problems actualy wares your hone uneven and using them on a corect razor afterwards ma leed to further problems.....so if a stone especialy a bevel setter is used to correct geometry problems....flaten it before using on a good razor or at least check if it is flat!...they require flattening more often...that is why i recomend spending the minimum ammount of time on the hones and always try to undertand the problem taht needs correcting before starting to correct it! Once you set on correcting it ...do it while removing the minimum ammount of metal!

So step one check if the stone is still flat...if not flaten it!

Step 2.

Use the Saphire marker to apply a coat of colour on bevels and spineware on both sides of the blade.

Few ppl know that the Saphire technique can be used both as a diagnostic test and as a stroke calibrtion test.
Most use it to see where the blade touches the hone.

This test can also be used to calibrte your stroke.

On ths kind of blades Rolling X strokes +/- targeted finger pressure are required.

Start with a normal rolling X stroke on both sides...then STOP and look at where the hone eats steel away.
Now calibrate your stroke...

If it misses a spot towards the tip/heel...apply pressure on the spine coresponding to that area....not the edge!
if it misses a spot in the middle of the blade like in your case....apply equal presure to the whole spine and have patience...when it starts to eat away the marker in the middle you can ease up on the pressure or apply a thin layer of tape to prevent further spineware....

Re apply the marker any time you need to and always think your next steps.

Idealy stroke calibration should be done when honing a new to you razor...it helps you learn the correct stroke to use on that specific razor....so it helps you spend less time on the hones and remove less metal.

I use it especialy before honing smyling razors and old english and french razors as well as new solingen razors...because of frequent geometry issues.
I practicaly aim to find the type of stroke that removes all the marker on the bevel from heel to toe...then i memorize it and repeat it troughout the progression to finisher.


There are many things to discuss about blade geometry but this should get you on the right road.

Hope it helps.

Thanks very much for your very comprehensive explanation.

Will give everything a try and see where it gets me.

"ANY ABNORMALITY IN BEVEL WIDTH HAS A CORESPONDANT IN SPINEWARE!"

Except, in the common case when it does not.

Bevel width is a function of geometry. A spine can be perfectly ground and straight on both sides, and you still can have variations in bevel width. Any variation in the thickness of the blade steel near the edge will translate into variations in the width of the bevel. The thicker the steel in that region, the wider the bevel will be. No twisting, warping, or spine issue needs to be at fault.

Ron is exactly right for several reasons. An edge can be off center from the spine, thus a different angle on one side than the other, there can be a bulge in the metal near the edge from grinding (this was said by Brian Brown), and also I seem to remember something about Dovo 'honing' them with the spine off the wheel.

Any one of these can lead to an uneven bevel with a straight spine.

Jarrod Connerty also visited Dovo and said that they use domed hones to get into the overground areas. Unfortunately I seem to have mis-placed my set of domed Shapton Pros... The domed hone is just functionally a narrow hone, like you might use to hone a frown or overgrind.

Cheers, Steve