Thread: My edges seem to be coming more harsh

Originally Posted by TristanLudlow

Without a shave test nor a microscope, how can one tell if the edge is overhoned?

I only have a loupe and a sensitive thumb, hmmz

I look through an eye loupe with the razor in front of a strong light in silhouette, if there is a crumbling edge going on you can see that easily.

I guess that I'll be the contrarian here. Not that I doubt anyone else's experience, but the only time I've experienced what may have been over honing and poor edge retention was with a slow cutting slate.

Once while mentoring someone who thought that they were over honing on a Shapton 13k pro. I did a full progression on his hones and then after finishing with maybe a dozen strokes on the 13k we looked at the edge at 100x, perfect. At this point I did maybe another hundred strokes on the 13k to dispel this over honing myth [IMHO]. The edge looked exactly the same as it did when I first finished it. The edge also held up fine to multiple shave tests.

This talk of the edge becoming too thin makes no sense to me. If the bevels meet at a perfect apex, continued honing does not change the angle of that apex, so the thinness is also unchanged. Excess pressure or slow cutting stones can make the apex into a Y rather than a V and that 'fin' can now break or fail while shaving creating a harsh edge. IME the Y shape is not inevitable from just honing beyond a finished edge and on fast stones with light pressure and good technique I don't see it happening at all.

I've heard of this over honing experience from enough people that I don't disbelieve that it happened to them, but as I said, the only time that I have experienced it was with a slow cutting slate and this includes trying to over hone on a 13k Shapton pro.

Before you begin anew Jerry, give it 20 on a CroOx-pasted strop, a pile of leather, and test it again.
Sometimes that will take the tooth out.

I used to do that on occasion and Lynn suggested it.

Worked great on 2 of mine.

Ill give it a try. I got a few that ill need to give some time on. Figured ill go back as far as 4k on one also. After killing the edge. Just to test the lower amount of time on the 12k. And with the cr0x test and lots of stropping. Ill have a couple i can compare and see whats happening here.

Originally Posted by Gasman

Ill give it a try. I got a few that ill need to give some time on. Figured ill go back as far as 4k on one also. After killing the edge. Just to test the lower amount of time on the 12k. And with the cr0x test and lots of stropping. Ill have a couple i can compare and see whats happening here.

That is how I learned as I got a 12k.
Even if I don't feel it, I never go more than 20.
If I feel it backing up (as in about to wire-edge), I go lightly a few after backhoning a few. Funny how finishers are all the talk and used so little........

Anyway, it cannot hurt to try the CroOx thing. The alternative and ultimate cure is to kill the edge and begin anew.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

I guess that I'll be the contrarian here. Not that I doubt anyone else's experience, but the only time I've experienced what may have been over honing and poor edge retention was with a slow cutting slate.

Once while mentoring someone who thought that they were over honing on a Shapton 13k pro. I did a full progression on his hones and then after finishing with maybe a dozen strokes on the 13k we looked at the edge at 100x, perfect. At this point I did maybe another hundred strokes on the 13k to dispel this over honing myth [IMHO]. The edge looked exactly the same as it did when I first finished it. The edge also held up fine to multiple shave tests.

This talk of the edge becoming too thin makes no sense to me. If the bevels meet at a perfect apex, continued honing does not change the angle of that apex, so the thinness is also unchanged. Excess pressure or slow cutting stones can make the apex into a Y rather than a V and that 'fin' can now break or fail while shaving creating a harsh edge. IME the Y shape is not inevitable from just honing beyond a finished edge and on fast stones with light pressure and good technique I don't see it happening at all.

I've heard of this over honing experience from enough people that I don't disbelieve that it happened to them, but as I said, the only time that I have experienced it was with a slow cutting slate and this includes trying to over hone on a 13k Shapton pro.

Nice analogy with turning the V into a Y. I have to admit that it has been a while since I have done this to an edge. I have to say that pressure is likely a needed component. i have a Sigma home that used to give me such terribly prickly edges that I stopped using it and went with 8K and a natural finisher for a very long time and recently got a Naniwa 12K that seems to be fine. I really should revisit my Sigma 13K and see if I am able to use it properly now that I have more experience.

Well. It all seems to begin with aggressive honing at the lower grits, IMO. You gotta hone all that out you just did!
Sort of like sanding blades....Another subject

Back in the DMT days!
Deep stria take a ton of work to get out.
It will be jagged and get worse if you don't take the time, FME.

I look at it like this. IF all is done properly up to the point of using the fine finisher, at a point, it is right.

If not enough was done in the middle, It gets worse and worse.
Not too much after that, the metal is stringing along on the hone.
If the Croox gets it, it was not so bad
If not, it's back to the beginning.
A pile of thin debris. It's gotta get gone somehow!

I Digress, of course!

I had a few minutes, well not really but... Went to the CR0X that I have on some zippy cloth. Got to get it on something else soon. Then went to a pile of leather as suggested. Just had my shave and it might have been a touch better but not much change. As far as sharpness, its fine. slices the old grey whiskers right off with no tugging or pulling. And the second pass finishes them off. Guess I'll just go back to the rocks and correct the mess I made of the bevel from too much over working of the bevel. I took a good long look at the edge and it looks straight as can be. No sparkles or chips. Nothing that I can see is wrong with this edge. OH WELL, I'll put some time on the hones this holiday time off and cross my fingers.

I've still got a loner Coticule that I've been trying to learn and its just not working for me. Not seeming to get more than an 8K feel from it. I'm going to work on the Synthetic stones this weekend and hope I can get some time for the coticule next weekend. Maybe I'm just trying to learn to much and one time but I dont think so. My synthetic edges have been really nice a month or so ago.

So there you go. The cr0x is just not the answer this time. Thanks for all the support and help guys. I'll let you know how it goes after the start over.

If it got better with the CroOx, It tells you something.
Lightly kill the edge, lots more midrange and try again.
Like I said, if it is close, it will work. At least you know what to do and you now know it was not close.
Some off-the-wall things serve more as gauges than cures.
At times, they are cures!

I got my microscope working much better now and its much stronger than my loupe. And this helps me a lot sense my eyes are not really great. I had seen a couple spots with my loupe that might have been an issue up by the toe of the first razor I decided to correct, but I just couldn't make it out. Just a speck up by the edge. With the microscope this is what I found...


Ouch!

I have no clue on the magnification as I don't have the plastic ruler that came with it and have no idea on how to figure it out. This was th worst spot s far as I can tell. There was a few other spots where a ding was also, so with 4 or 5 bad spots on the dge I figure this is where the problem was that was causing discomfort.

BYW, The stria on the pic is from a 2K stone.