Thread: My edges seem to be coming more harsh

No need to keep the picture. Just keep looking at edges that you hone and then go shave.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

I guess that I'll be the contrarian here. Not that I doubt anyone else's experience, but the only time I've experienced what may have been over honing and poor edge retention was with a slow cutting slate.

Once while mentoring someone who thought that they were over honing on a Shapton 13k pro. I did a full progression on his hones and then after finishing with maybe a dozen strokes on the 13k we looked at the edge at 100x, perfect. At this point I did maybe another hundred strokes on the 13k to dispel this over honing myth [IMHO]. The edge looked exactly the same as it did when I first finished it. The edge also held up fine to multiple shave tests.

This talk of the edge becoming too thin makes no sense to me. If the bevels meet at a perfect apex, continued honing does not change the angle of that apex, so the thinness is also unchanged. Excess pressure or slow cutting stones can make the apex into a Y rather than a V and that 'fin' can now break or fail while shaving creating a harsh edge. IME the Y shape is not inevitable from just honing beyond a finished edge and on fast stones with light pressure and good technique I don't see it happening at all.

I've heard of this over honing experience from enough people that I don't disbelieve that it happened to them, but as I said, the only time that I have experienced it was with a slow cutting slate and this includes trying to over hone on a 13k Shapton pro.

My experience exactly

Originally Posted by bluesman7

I guess that I'll be the contrarian here. Not that I doubt anyone else's experience, but the only time I've experienced what may have been over honing and poor edge retention was with a slow cutting slate.

Once while mentoring someone who thought that they were over honing on a Shapton 13k pro. I did a full progression on his hones and then after finishing with maybe a dozen strokes on the 13k we looked at the edge at 100x, perfect. At this point I did maybe another hundred strokes on the 13k to dispel this over honing myth [IMHO]. The edge looked exactly the same as it did when I first finished it. The edge also held up fine to multiple shave tests.

This talk of the edge becoming too thin makes no sense to me. If the bevels meet at a perfect apex, continued honing does not change the angle of that apex, so the thinness is also unchanged. Excess pressure or slow cutting stones can make the apex into a Y rather than a V and that 'fin' can now break or fail while shaving creating a harsh edge. IME the Y shape is not inevitable from just honing beyond a finished edge and on fast stones with light pressure and good technique I don't see it happening at all.

I've heard of this over honing experience from enough people that I don't disbelieve that it happened to them, but as I said, the only time that I have experienced it was with a slow cutting slate and this includes trying to over hone on a 13k Shapton pro.

We could start a whole other thread on this alone and go on and on. I will do my best to help, but will put the proof in the pudding when I see you in February as I will bring a couple stones to send home with you. Overhoning is real, especially with synthetics, but of course there are variables:

Variable 1: Stones. I very seldom experienced overhoning on stones at or around 12k. This seemed to be my "barrier" and I agree with you Victor at or around 12k, it's truly hard to overhone a quality middle of the road razor (speaking in terms of hardness). Shapton GS 16 & ESPECIALLY 30 and the G20 you CAN overhone. The edge becomes just too fragile for the steel to hold up to human whiskers, which is the equivalent of cutting through copper of the same diameter.

Variable 2: Hardness: Hardness IMO is something to really pay attention to while setting the bevel. You will notice how quickly or slowly a razor takes bevel set. A Thiers Issard is a bit harder than a Wade and Butcher, an Electric Cutlery or Wustof is harder than a DePew, and so on. I like harder blades personally as you can push them further than the softer steels and you get a couple more shaves out of them before having to touch up.

Lets imagine in your minds eye the part that does the work, the edge. In my minds eye, the best cutting edge on the planet is a wedge grind with a convex cutting area. This supports the cutting edge with more steel, this is why I almost always hone to 16 or 20K and finish on Escher with a light slurry. The slurry takes back that cutting area just a bit on the microscopic level to add just a bit of support to the cutting edge...so it's not a pervect "V". Think katana or wakizashi.

Every hardened steel has a breaking point, the thinner you get, the more apt it is to break if the same amount of pressure is applied to it. This pressure in our razors is the whisker we are shaving.

Some ask me how many "strokes", how do you know when to move on to the next "grit" in the progression. This is just like asking "how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll lollypop". Shapton GS stones give a lot of feedback if you feel for it...especially at 4K and up. You get a feeling of "stiction" when most of the scratches from the previous stone are gone from the bevel. I then normally go 2-3 very gentle strokes more and move on to the next stone.

Ive still never felt this stiction you talk about. Maybe im just not noticing or it doesnt happen on the naniwa stones? But thanks for the comment above. It does make sense. And that is what i live by. When its magic or someone says that just the way it is, i cant deal with that.

Originally Posted by ScottGoodman

I will do my best to help, but will put the proof in the pudding when I see you in February as I will bring a couple stones to send home with you. Overhoning is real, especially with synthetics, but of course there are variables:

I look forward to this discussion. It is so much better in person, I'll bring my dry board.

Varilable 3:

Pressure

This really comes into play with very thin very hollow blades, you might very well call it Mis-Honing rather than over honing doesn't really matter
By the very slight flexing of the blade, you can hone "Behind" the Fin thus weakening the edge itself, a creating a harsh fragile edge. It has also be called a Burr or a False Edge these tags have simply lead to more confusion in the community


Over-Honing is a technically incorrect term but it seems to be embedded within the community and we can't get rid of it, trust me I have been trying for over 10 years now and here were are discussing the exact same thing again

Call it what you will it is essentially bad honing


Read what Scott wrote in #2 above again that is a good one, especially about "Reading" the steel at the bevel set, of course, like even thing else when it comes to honing the more different razors you hone the more apparent these differences become.

This is some good stuff! Now if i can learn to hone with my Ham Fist lightly. Ha. Going very light on the stone can be tough on me. My hands tend to shake and that makes it hard to keep it on the stone.

Loving the details here. Thanks Scott and Glen.

Very insightful information gentlemen, I've been greatly enjoying reading all comments

Originally Posted by Gasman

Ive still never felt this stiction you talk about. Maybe im just not noticing or it doesnt happen on the naniwa stones? .

I feel it on Naniwa stones.