Thread: Finding the perfect edge. Yeah right.

Originally Posted by Birnando

So do we.
Good stuff to put on the egg.
I love whale steaks

Good to see you you whale eating son of a gun lol.

Learn something new every day. I know that our Inuit harvest some. So is there enough of a supply that perhaps whale bone would be available for project or are there restrictions on export

Originally Posted by cudarunner

Learn something new every day. I know that our Inuit harvest some. So is there enough of a supply that perhaps whale bone would be available for project or are there restrictions on export

Actually I think that would be simple enough.
Whale, in various cuts, are available in just about any super market during season..
I’ll have a look around and see what I can find

For me the SG 20 is harsh, and I have gone to naturals after the 20k with improvement. You will be looking at Arks and Jnats.

But, here the razor makes a big difference and as said the trick is going right up to the line. You go over and it’s too much. With an Ark it is easier to sneak up on an edge, depending on the prep of the stone face, how slick it is. You don’t need a large stone for just a few final laps a 4-6 inch stone works well so you can have a kind of Ark stone progression depending on the stone and stone face prep. Yes, I know overboard…

The same for Jnats, you can finish on Koppa, though large stones are nice. But if experimenting or budget issue, don’t pass on quality small stones.

An ark edge is for me a unique edge, nothing is like an Ark edge, for me.

But if you really want more…PASTE.

Nano Paste. The good thing about paste, is anyone can get smoking repeatable edges in a few minutes, (from a properly honed edge). A life time supply around $50.

So, worst case, you go too far, Joint the edge and 20 laps later you are back where you started...

Ive used the Ark after 12k but not after 20k. Ive enjoyed the 20k edge but some times i find it harsh too. So ive been cutting back on the amount of laps on the 20k. Still havent found the perfect combo yet but im giving it hell.

I think i might give the ark a try for a few laps after the 20k. Thanks for that idea. One question @Euclid440 you said if go to far, kill the edge and you get back after 20 laps. Is this 20 laps on the ark? I would normally go back a few stones. In my understanding, after killing the edge, even done lightly, bevel setting needs to be done to get the edge corrected. And the finer stones only polish bevel, not cut edge. Maybe im wrong in this thinking? Sure, i could try it over and over until i figure it out but all this great honing info helps a guy to speed up the learning.

Thanks to all for the ideas and opinions. With the little time i get to play with stones, its a slow process learning. But its fun and i have to take notes or i forget what ive done. Lol.

Originally Posted by Gasman

Ive used the Ark after 12k but not after 20k. Ive enjoyed the 20k edge but some times i find it harsh too. So ive been cutting back on the amount of laps on the 20k. Still havent found the perfect combo yet but im giving it hell.

I think i might give the ark a try for a few laps after the 20k. Thanks for that idea. One question @Euclid440 you said if go to far, kill the edge and you get back after 20 laps. Is this 20 laps on the ark? I would normally go back a few stones. In my understanding, after killing the edge, even done lightly, bevel setting needs to be done to get the edge corrected. And the finer stones only polish bevel, not cut edge. Maybe im wrong in this thinking? Sure, i could try it over and over until i figure it out but all this great honing info helps a guy to speed up the learning.

Thanks to all for the ideas and opinions. With the little time i get to play with stones, its a slow process learning. But its fun and i have to take notes or i forget what ive done. Lol.

If I find a stone was overused I will back it off with 8K slurry. You don't exactly kill the edge to the point that you need a bevel set but it steps it back enough to reset things. Then I rinse the 8k and bring it back up.

“You said if go to far, kill the edge and you get back after 20 laps. Is this 20 laps on the ark?”
“In my understanding, after killing the edge, even done lightly, bevel setting needs to be done to get the edge corrected. And the finer stones only polish bevel, not cut edge.”


No, an 8-12k, a 20k may take a few more laps or you could use a bit of pressure, a bit.

I am talking about jointing, lightly dragging the razor edge on the corner of a stone, not grinding, so you cut off just the edge, removing a microscopic amount of steel, to straighten and lightly cut off the very edge. You can look at the edge for straightness and if need be do another light stroke.

I generally go to an 8k, I love the Naniwia, Snow White it is hard, fast and a super finisher, near mirror. From the 8k you can go to the 20k or natural finisher.

You probably could use an Ark, a Lilly White, but I generally go to synthetics and finish on naturals or 20k with paste for razors.

The goal of a full bevel set is to 1. Flatten the bevel from heel to toe from the top of the bevel to the edge. 2. Get the bevels to meet at the edge from heel to toe and 3. Have a straight or continuous edge (smiling edge).

Most honing issues result when one or more of the above did not occur, usually the bevels are not meeting fully. If you do not fully understand how to absolutely without a doubt, identify a fully set bevel, that is part of your problem. There should be absolutely no doubt that a bevel is FULLY set, before you move up in progression or you are wasting your time and steel.

Once the bevels are flat and meeting, if you remove a microscopic amount of the super thin edge, it is very easy to get them to meet again, because the bevels are already flat, (the hardest part of bevel setting where the most material is removed) and only have to remove a microscopic amount of steel from each bevel to get them to meet again.

Once the bevels are set, flat, meeting and the edge is straight-ish. Polishing the bevels on a progression, removes the deep stria that run all the way to the edge. Where the stria meet the edge, the edge will be serrated, the stria becomes a scallop at the edge.

As you polish away the stria, actually remove all the metal on the bevel to the depth of the bottom of the stria grove, you lay down progressively smaller stria, and get a straighter edge. The finer the stria, the straighter the edge, and yes you are removing microscopic amounts of steel from the bevels and naturally the edge. All grit leaves stria, the question is do you have enough magnification to see the stria.

.10um paste is 160,000 grit equivalent, you’re not seeing that with your 10X loupe.

Look at your edges, you will see that an edge becomes very straight after about 8k with 60-100X magnification. Look at your edges with magnification after and during each stone in the progression, you will learn a lot about what is happening at each stage, your technique, and the razor.

Good lighted magnification is cheap, 5-$15 for 60-100X.

Originally Posted by Gasman

So i know folks are going to say "give it a try", but id like to hear from others who have tried this. I can get a crazy keen edge on my razors now. One that will slip thru whiskers like a hot knife thru butter. When you shave you would think there was nothing happening because you feel no cutting at all. But now im wondering...

Can you take this edge (mine being 20k) and go to a natural, very hard stone like an arkie or slate of some kind and get a touch more comfort on the edge without loosing any of that keenness that i like so much? Or is it by doing this, you will loose some of the keen and thats what makes for the comfort? Just trying to wrap my mind around this before i go screwing up one of my perfect edges.

I have been doing this for years. At first it was up to 16k on the Shapton GS stones, now its up to 20k on the Gok...then to yg escher. Smooths the edge out.

I dont like arkies, but do have a mostly retired huge Charnley Forest. To soften that edge, you need a sedimentary stone IMO. I have tried slurrying ceramic stones and they dont break down right...too hard.

Pro tip: you can actually use a escher slurry stone on the G20 to almost get the same edge as going to a real full size escher/thuringian.

Thanks for correcting my opinion. As you say, we are talking about a microscopic amount of the edge. So I can see that staying at the higher grit stones would work as its a very fine amount. Thanks for explaining this. I do use a loupe but its a 40X and I try to quit using it after the bevel set as I just keep wanting to stay on one stone for a long time watching the stria. Putting down the loupe has helped me to move to the next stone quicker and not do hundreds of laps on the 8K or 12K.

I will give this a try as I have one that is not making me happy at the moment. I do know how to get a good bevel set nowadays. I spent a lot of time on this a few months ago so that I knew I was there and for sure I was there. I use the TNT and can tell by the amount of drag I get. And the drag must be the same across the entire edge. Also I should NOT be able to see the edge at all when I look straight down on the edge. If I can see a line still, then I'm not there yet. Plus I don't want to see any extra lines running parallel to the edge. I found this a lot at first and found out it was from too much pressure. I was not getting one solid bevel.

As far as some Thuri slurry on my 20K, that does sound interesting but I don't have a Thuri or even a little slurry stone. This does sound like a nice way to keep from buying the big Thuri I've been hoping to run across some day. They sure get spendy when you're looking for a large one. I enjoy my stones more when they are 3X8 like my synthetics. Price a Thuri close to that size. It's scary!

Here is an old post (My first honing attempt), look at page 9 post 41. There are 3 photos looking straight down on a razor edge. The first photo shows an incomplete bevel, the second, micro chips or near set bevel, the last a fully set bevel. The edge is the dark line below the middle of the photo, the tiny reflections are dust particles near the edge.

A micro chipped edge will shave, and may shave well, but can lead to more chipping after stropping, usually it feels like a harsh edge or will cut you, some folks confuse this with weepers.

Yea, you are not there yet, that you can give up looking at the edge with magnification. You will learn a lot by using magnification, you don’t have to but then you are where you are now.

I still look at the edge and bevel with magnification before moving up in stone, it is too easy to muff an edge, and if you move up in stone you are just wasting time, because you will have to go back in grit to fix it later. I try to perfect the bevel and edge at each stage.