Thread: simple honing under the stereo scope

Originally Posted by caltoncutlery

I don't think that what he calls a full hollow, is the same as say a vintage or new dovo full hollow. I saw a couple of his razors at the razor makers meet with blues last year, and noticed right off that they are nowhere near as thin as what blues normally grinds, or what you would think of when someone mentions "full hollow". now that was just a couple of his razors, so I don't know if he left those thicker, or if that is representative of his normal grinds or not, but the grinds on those would give much more latitude on the amount of pressure on the strop or stones that you could use.

Bingo ! Stiff & heavy quarter hollow razors, as made by most if not all modern cutlers have plenty of steel to play with & as you say "are just a chunk of steel". It is replaceable after it's use by date. Century old thinly ground razors are not.

Od course "not all burrs are created equal" but deliberately raising a burr that can be felt with a fingernail on a full hollow vintage razor is simply unnecessary, wasteful & can leave you with an uncomfortable, microchipped edge due to the burr breaking off unevenly.

I'm sure most of the guys posting here know what they're doing & aren't destroying razors but not everybody lurking to glean knowledge from these forums is in the same boat so opposing views are healthy. YMMV used to get used a lot here in the past

At the meet I made the point that feeling the burr would be just as difficult for a beginner to learn as using a thumbnail test. I don't know that this is true, but the burr on 6k and above is pretty subtle. The burr method did work for me, but I'm coming from a place where I already know how to hone a razor.

I still have very mixed feelings about the system. I feel that removing the burr has to be causing damage to the edge, but the scope showed a very straight edge after an 8k burr was removed and stropped at the meet. I definitely did learn something by trying it on a razor that I did not care about. Like I said, I am doing a longevity test on the edge I used this on, though even if the edge is short lived I'm not sure it means much if the user can bring back the edge with a few laps on CrOx.

I have followed this thread with much interest and I see many of the differences of opinion are based on what one has and what they are trying to accomplish.

A what I hope is a simple example.

Do you have a quarter hollow tool that you need to do a job or a gold washed hollow ground with decorated spine historic artifact/heirloom?

Certainly the time and energy you spend and what you think that time and energy is worth should be entered into the equation.

bobh, the biggest reason for that video is that it is the simplest and most foolproof way I know of to get a serviceable edge on a razor no matter what condition the edge is in when you start, and without using optics, especially when dealing with a razor that doesn't come ready to go. I would think that once a person could repeatably be able to hone a razor with that method, then they will have enough confidence to start taking their edges further. perhaps even using a non-burr method if they wished. for me teaching folks to sharpen, the simpler the better, and known benchmarks are great. once I get them started, if I make it simple enough, then they start flying and trying different edges, methods, and bam, they are hooked, get better, get better, and then show others how easy sharpening is.

onimaro, to me everything with a cutting edge is just a chunk of steel, some are prettier than others, some have better craftsmanship or materials, but its all just a chunk of steel. and stones are just rocks, some nicer than others, but they are still rocks. nothing I do in the shop is near as complicated as say dentistry {brain surgery is overused I think}. ymmv :} good steel, that is of nice fine grain and at a good working hardness should not give you much microchipping even with a burr. if you are getting a lot of microchipping, I would suspect the steel, the heat treat, too much buffing at high pressure during the finishing stage, or too big a burr too late in the sharpening stage, not prepping the burr for removal, ect…. the wastefulness of a burr, I can go etiher way on that one. if you raise one everytime you hone, then sure. but if you use it to reset an edge, then you wouldn't need to raise one again unless the edge was damaged. but the steel at the very edge will eventually be used up during a traditional honing session anyways though perhaps at 1/2 the rate which would be what, a couple thousandths in width?


blues, I have thought a lot about what you said about the burr being tough to feel. I still think that it shouldn't be, I mean my hands and fingertips are pretty beat up and I can feel it. the other day, I taught my 14 year old nephew how to sharpen his first knife using the burr method, and he felt it right off, understood it, and was able to sharpen a shop knife pretty well for his first go, it would scrape shave hair off my arm. then I took his pocket knife, cut the edge off on the stone, and told him to do the same thing he did with the shop knife to his pocket knife, and see how he did while I forged a couple 1095 hunters. he was pretty pissed that I dulled his knife, but then about 20 minutes later, he was on cloud nine when he had it sharp again all by himself. so of course I gave him the stone, and told him to go home and practice on his knife and his brothers, and then on his moms kitchen knives and to call if he had any problems. that boy will never fear a dull knife again for the rest of his life. if your edge is short lived, which it should not be, it wont really matter, as the bulk of the work has been done by the burr, and you will now be touching up or maintaining the edge with the crox, strop, barber hone, finishing stone, whatever you like.

32t, perfect!! I would add experience level to your list of differences. we all gotta start somewhere. and starting off with the burr based method and a solid workhorse razor, vintage or new or custom is a great place to start. then you can advance based on a solid foundation to the gold washed decorated spine razor as your confidence, skill, and pocketbook allows :} take a beginner, give them a very nice razor, and make honing sound like a black art, and you have the perfect recipie to send someone back to a cartridge.

I guess if a beginner has a good teacher whose aim is to "do no harm" when honing it's all good.
I am mostly an "optics" user so I feel that is the gentlest way to go & also the most precise but I know exactly what a passable thumb test is when setting a razor.

I restored the edge on a very fine ground hollow today & started on 1k due to the micropitting in the bevel. I guess if I started on 5k & raised a burr I may have gotten to the same point but the 1k was faster. I wonder if I removed the same amount of steel. Rhetorical question. I removed what was necessary to set a clean bevel & no more & the loupe told me when that was.



When I do knives I have to resort to paper towel or a piece of cotton to feel a burr. I don't have the dexterity otherwise. Even there I don't aim for a sizeable burr but I'm sure I have a ton to learn about sharpening knives.

I suppose if you're talking a coupla thou' with a burr you have a very precise method & good "hands" but the main point that some of us are making is that razors don't get as much hard use as a knife & a gentle approach is appropriate on the finer grinds, whatever your technique.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I am mostly an "optics" user so I feel that is the gentlest way to go & also the most precise
.

I am the same. I use the TNT when setting the edge and then rely heavily on a microscope above 3k. I pay a lot of attention to the feel on the stone with the goal of getting microscope quality edges without the microscope, but at present I'm using the microscope to correlate to what I'm feeling. Teaching my full method is pretty much off of the table to someone not using a fairly high quality microscope. That makes it out of reach to the person who might want to use straights, but only if he/she can hone them themselves without a ridiculous investment in stones, equipment and practice.

For the experiment I wanted to see what I would get JUST using the burr, a 1k/6k King, CrOx, and zero optics. I did not even look at the bevel more than to see which side I wanted to start the burr on.

My interest is; "What is the minimum a person could get by with, in both equipment and training, and still get a reasonably good edge?".

Originally Posted by bluesman7

I am the same. I use the TNT when setting the edge and then rely heavily on a microscope above 3k. I pay a lot of attention to the feel on the stone with the goal of getting microscope quality edges without the microscope, but at present I'm using the microscope to correlate to what I'm feeling. Teaching my full method is pretty much off of the table to someone not using a fairly high quality microscope. That makes it out of reach to the person who might want to use straights, but only if he/she can hone them themselves without a ridiculous investment in stones, equipment and practice.

For the experiment I wanted to see what I would get JUST using the burr, a 1k/6k King, CrOx, and zero optics. I did not even look at the bevel more than to see which side I wanted to start the burr on.

My interest is; "What is the minimum a person could get by with, in both equipment and training, and still get a reasonably good edge?".

Another way to skin the cat.

I only use an 8x loupe. It's inexpensive for beginners and as a one on one process easy to teach & learn.

I think the minimum one could use would be a 12k for "one stone honing" but it is slowish & not consistent.
With minimalist progressions it's also best to use fast cutting stones so that the middle stone doesn't have to work too hard & long. If you were honing a bunch of wedges Kings tend to need more lapping than harder stones.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

My interest is; "What is the minimum a person could get by with, in both equipment and training, and still get a reasonably good edge?".

I can say a 4/8 Norton. I use a 5x loupe, but usually look at it with readers and a magnifying visor on.
I run from microscopes!

Originally Posted by sharptonn

I can say a 4/8 Norton. I use a 5x loupe, but usually look at it with readers and a magnifying visor on.
I run from microscopes!

What was Jimmy's saying? The higher the magnification the worse my honing looks

Sounds about right!
I would not know.....I have never looked. At least to much magnification.

Sharp and shiny bevel is fine with me!