Thread: Bevel Setting

Typically the new person to honing puts far too much pressure on the spine and wears it prematurely, so tape is always recommended.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ggestions.html
This thread has good pictures.
A typical honing progression is 1, 4, 8K. A comfortable shaving edge starts at 8K. If you set the bevel properly and finish with a series of light strokes you should be able to get a coarse shave off the 1K. There is a few 1K shave threads around.

I definitely agree with the majority of responders here. The bevel was not set, and the honer moved up through his progression anyway.

One or two views don't always tell the full story. Any honer worth his stones will turn that razor in the light and change the angle of incidence to study the reflections literally in a different light, to make the final absolute determination, but those pics are pretty damning, IYAM. I say drop down to a 1k to 2k synthetic stone or maybe 9u lapping film and keep honing until the contact area goes clear to the absolute edge of the steel, and no sparklies or dull spots can be seen on the edge, and THEN run the progression.

Also while the bevel, such as it is, is nice and flat, and considerable attention was given to it at the finish stage, the midrange was not carried out diligently. Some very deep scratches from the bevel setter or coarser corrective stones used before the bevel setter were not totally obliterated in the next stage. One of the basic principles of progressive honing is that each stage must eliminate all previously made scratches, replacing them with its own finer scratches, before moving up to the next grit. If the bevel was set properly in the first place, those scratches would not prevent the razor from shaving but they would definitely be noticed by appearance and in effect.

I do, of course, disagree with always using tape when honing, but the real issue here is not seeing the bevel to completion and in fact not seeing any stage to completion except maybe sorta the finish, which can't be expected to remove such deep gougey scratches. Take that razor back to the bevel setter and go UNTIL THE BEVEL IS SET, truly set, proven set.

Really good advice for us honing newbies.

I find that bevel setting although vital is the hardest part for me.

I usually have trouble understanding exactly what I'm looking at with the loupe and not making a wire edge is very difficult because i spend longer than probably needed on 1K.

Everyone says that practice makes perfect and I agree, i have had a few light bulb moments myself but it is difficult to improve unless a person is told where their going wrong and how to improve their results. Gently of course because my experience is that learning to bevel set can be soul destroying sometimes.

The advice and help and of course encouragement from you experienced honers here has been more useful than I can say so I just want to thank you all for spending time with us newbies.

Originally Posted by STF

Really good advice for us honing newbies.

I find that bevel setting although vital is the hardest part for me.

I usually have trouble understanding exactly what I'm looking at with the loupe and not making a wire edge is very difficult because i spend longer than probably needed on 1K.

Everyone says that practice makes perfect and I agree, i have had a few light bulb moments myself but it is difficult to improve unless a person is told where their going wrong and how to improve their results. Gently of course because my experience is that learning to bevel set can be soul destroying sometimes.

The advice and help and of course encouragement from you experienced honers here has been more useful than I can say so I just want to thank you all for spending time with us newbies.

You can spend hours on your bevel setter and make a toothpick out of your razor without fin or wire edge. Throw in some pull strokes, at a ratio of about 1 pull stroke lap to 5 regular laps. Even one in 10 will probably work. Then however many regular laps you used, go about half that many very short x strokes. By very short, I mean about 3" to 4" of travel. Super light pressure with these. This will peak that edge but not create any artifacts. You could also set your bevel with a lot of slurry on the stone. Slurry will rob you of sharpness but you would have to really work at it, to raise a wire.

I often set a bevel using the burr method or a modified burr method. And the process relies on a burr to prove that the bevel faces have met at an apex. The burr must then be honed off, and it IS. When you have edge artifacts, you aren't stuck with them. You don't have to glass ("kill") the edge and start all over. Strip the edge clean with pull strokes and peak it back up with plenty of short strokes, examine your edge and hit it some more until it's clear and you have a nice flat bevel and a tight, smooth apex.

Pressure is the friend of wire or fin edge. Yes, plenty of pressure is useful in initially forming the bevel, but you need to lighten up when it comes together.

A pull stroke is where you take the same starting position as a regular lap, razor laying across the stone or film with the shoulder butted up against the side of the hone, but instead of traveling away from you and down the hone, you pull it to the side, with a travel distance of about 3/4" or so. This strips all the edge boogers from your razor but it can very slightly round the apex, but it is quickly peaked back up with regular but very light laps, particularly short x stroke laps.

Long strokes remove steel smoothly and efficiently. However, the more action one side gets before flipping, the more burr is sent up. A very short stroke does not have a chance to send up any burr before the other side gets a taste of the abrasive. Doing these short x strokes with very light pressure peaks up an even more precise apex, free of artifacts.

Any stage of the progression, even the balsa strops, can benefit from these techniques.

Sounds to me like your trying to bevel set with an 8k?
It can be done, but it takes experiance and a lot of effort and time to do. And an experienced honer wouldn't do it unless for a bet. Lol

Buy yourself a King 1k as they are low cost and a good starting point. Soak it and lap it. Then try to bevel set. You will feel a lot of difference. Its the first steps in learning to hone. Your trying to put a finish edge on a razor when working at 8k or 12k. Your polishing the edge, not cutting it. Have you lapped your stones? Are you using slurry? DO use a layer of tape. Read about honing before going any farther and you may get a good enough edge to shave with but its going to take a lot of time and practice. Most people who hone to a shave ready edge have been honing for years. You will not learn it over night or in a week or month.

Just read and learn and keep asking questions. We will help you but do not think its going to come quickly.

First post some pics of the whole razor, there may be something else going on that may be an issue.

Looks like you may be close, but something as simple as too much pressure with a hollow ground razor can lift the edge off the stone.

Post pics of the whole razor before you do anything else.

Originally Posted by Smell

I am new to all this and it is the first time for me and the Razor .
I have not used any tape on the spine and have used a 8 k followed by a 12 k .The razor is a dovo Bismark

<face palm> Gasman's post gave me a quick reality check. You need a proper bevel setter and something in the intermediate range. If you can't afford stones, get out of the stone age and go with lapping film, with sandpaper for correction and bevel setting. You will need a light, thick plate that positively does not flex or warp, so that means no wood. I favor 3/4" acrylic, 3" wide and 12" long, from TAP Plastics. It works great for film, for sandpaper, and for balsa. That's my universal plate. 1" thick is better but I am a cheapo. Anyway if you fold and tear a whole sheet of 2000 grit wet/dry sandpaper in thirds lengthwise, spray the back of a piece lightly with 3M or similar spray adhesive, and CAREFULLY apply it tight and smooth to your plate, you have an extremely flat one use bevel setter for your Bismarck. I suggest honing a big stainless chef knife on it to knock off any proud abrasive particles, first, before putting your razor to it. Go at it until your bevel is positively absolutely set, and don't even think about moving up in grit until you have the bevel properly set. It is often said that taking a fine hone to a razor without a good bevel is like polishing a turd. Polish it all you want, you still won't change it's base nature. The bevel IS the edge. All other honing just refines and polishes the bevel.

After the bevel is set, you should go to a midrange stone of 3k to 5k grit. Or 9u lapping film on the same acrylic plate. Cut the sheet in thirds lengthwise, just like the sandpaper. Use acetone to remove glue residue. DO NOT GLUE THE FILM! Do not use PSA film (sticky back), it will stick with just water if you squeegee it out from under the film. A good stone for this would be the Naniwa Superstone 3k. I strongly recommend against cheap stones. You will get what you pay for. If you have to go cheap, learn to use (and buy... don't get the wrong stuff!!!!!) lapping film.

From that intermediate, you can go to your pre-finisher, which is your 8k, if it is a decent stone and not a King or Bear Moo or some generic Chinese thing. By now even if you lapped the stone before you started, it certainly isn't flat now. So you need to lap your stone. Sandpaper to the rescue, again. Glue a whole sheet to a 12x12 polished marble floor tile, wet it, and rub rock on paper, using as little over-run as possible, taking care not to rock the stone. 220 grit or so will work fine. Most guys draw a grid on the stone with a pencil and go until the grid is gone. Rinse occasionally, because slurry will build up and give false results. When the grid is very nearly gone, you can bump your game by changing to 400 or 600 grit. No need to go finer. Then hone your chef's knife on it to give the stone a nice surface. Again, I can recommend the Naniwa Superstone in 8k, but a Shapton or similar is okay. I don't think much of Norton, and again, the Chinese stuff leaves a lot to desire. Or 3u lapping film.

Then, your 12k. Again, lap it. It needs to be lapped right out of the box, and it needs to be lapped periodically thereafter. And it needs to not be some cheap Chinese stone. Remember, this is a genuine cheap charlie talking here, and I am telling you that a good stone is worth the money, and a cheap one is not. The Naniwa Superstone 12k is a very good finisher, consistent, not too soft, easy to use. Or use 1u lapping film, if you don't want to spend the bucks on the Naniwa.

Film is not only cheaper, but it is more consistent and you don't have to lap stones. The plate stays flat because it doesn't get any wear. A sheet makes three pieces, each piece can do about a dozen razors. Some say more. I think Seraphim on B&B says he gets at least 20 uses from one piece. Even if you pay a couple bucks a sheet, that is pretty cheap. If you don't hone a dozen razors a day, it makes sense to go with film. Be sure you get L A P P I N G F I L M .Not "finishing film" or Lapping paper" or "polishing paper" or "polishing film" or other similar misleadingly named things that won't do the job. 3M is a good brand. Make sure it is plain back, not adhesive back or "PSA". I use NanoLapTech. Their generic film is identical (maybe just rebranded?) to 3M. ThorLabs also has good stuff, but in bigger 9" x 13" sheets.

Do it right until you got it right, at every stage. Do not move up in grit until it is DONE at that stage. Tape or not tape, whatever blows your skirt up, but I strongly suggest against it. Others strongly suggest for it. Just do it and do it the same way start to finish. If you use tape, Puh-LEEEEEZE change it when it gets raggedy looking. You may have to change it several times in each stage. Be sure your pressure is balanced between edge and spine, not concentrated on either one. I suggest honing in hand instead of on a bench or table. Your pressure almost regulates itself. You let the razor and the hone find their own alignment, instead of trying desperately to control the razor with two hands, compounding your mistakes. Again, I am the exception here and most guys here bench hone so they can use their fancy stone holders and sink bridges. Up to you. Pick one or the other, and stick with it. Even bench honing is better than switching back and forth.

Bevel setting STONE? Some will recommend a King 1k for a budget constrained newbie. I call them razor poison. The Chosera 1k is the last word in synthetic bevel setters. Remember to lap it before you use it. The 1k Chosera isn't so terribly expensive. You can also use 30u lapping film but bevel setting goes through film pretty quick. I like sandpaper, or my Chosera 1k or 600. For the heavy lifting when a lot of steel has to come off, I have a Kuromaku and a Suehiro 320 grit, and I use sandpaper when I feel the need to go coarser. I once used a Norton 1k but quality went WAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY downhill maybe 20 years ago when they moved production to Mexico. They actually seem to be improving a bit, on the 1k. I have a recent production Norton 1k that isn't too bad, doesn't dish very fast at all, but is a LOT coarser than the other 1k stones in my arsenal. In fact it feels coarser than my CHosera 600. But once lapped, it stays flat for a while, and it certainly cuts fast though it does tend to load up with swarf easily. If you get a good one, the Norton is sort of adequate but coarser than what you need where you are with your Bismarck. And it isnt that much cheaper than a Chosera.

Reading between the lines it was a shave ready razor or factory edge degraded by incorrect technique, stropping or honing or all of the above. As per normal advice a 8k and 12k was used to refresh the edge. Unfortunately it’s not always as easy as it would appear.

Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

A pull stroke is where you take the same starting position as a regular lap, razor laying across the stone or film with the shoulder butted up against the side of the hone, but instead of traveling away from you and down the hone, you pull it to the side, with a travel distance of about 3/4" or so.

I have been working on a bit of a problem child and remembered these from your blog. I was amazed that I was not getting a smooth even stroke. It just seems like a no-brainer, slide it across. But, I had to slow everything down to be very specific telling my hand to keep everything in line. I was travelling like 1.5", though.

It is just one of those things that I find interesting. If there is anything for us newbies to get out of it, it is basically that any new thing, no matter how automatic it seems, probably deserves some extra consideration until you can go back to autopilot.

Thanks for the advice ! I have a 8k Naniwa Super Stone and a 12k Naniwa Super Stone . I have ordered 3M Lapping Film and I am still waiting for it to arrive via the post.!!!( 3 weeks now ) . I will do exactly what you have said in your post and will let you know how i go .