Thread: Rolling X - I think I figured something out

Hey Yall,

Just want to run this by you. I am not unique in this, but I learn things by reading/watching a lot of stuff, digesting it, and then figuring out what it all means myself. I think I had an "aha" moment and just wanted to run this by you. I generally use no additional pressure when honing anything. Just enough torque to keep the blade sliding smoothly and evenly along the edge.

I have been having a lot of trouble figuring out the rolling pressure along the edge. Too often I was lifting the spine off the stone. But, I recently had the chance to work on a blade that had the bevel set and just needed a polish. So, I am going to try to describe what I felt in two different ways.

1. When honing a knife I lay the blade on the stone and rotate it until you can feel the bevel is flat on the stone. And, I use that sensation to maintain the proper bevel angle. When I was working on this blade, I was able to change the torque in order to feel the bevel sitting flat from heel to toe.

2. Another way to feel it is the amount of friction you feel along the edge. I was changing the amount of torque to maintain an even feeling of friction from heel to toe.

Does this sound about right?

By the way, yes, these "aha" moments are usually also "duh" moments.

Why use any torque? I never use torque and hone just fine

Originally Posted by JOB15

Why use any torque? I never use torque and hone just fine

Hi Joseph,

Just to be clear, when you say no torque are you talking about twisting the blade or just pressure as in no pressure?

I have watched your honing vids and I did think you did like 40 laps with pressure to over hone and then join the edge and do no pressure half a dozen at a time to bring it back again.

Did I understand you correctly?

Thats on 1K to set the bevel?

Originally Posted by JOB15

Why use any torque? I never use torque and hone just fine

The way it was explained to me was "trying to shave a thin layer off the top of the stone". For me, I think it is sort of a focus on keeping the edge in good even and consistent contact.

EDIT: Wait, you have to add some sort of pressure in some way to get any sort of rolling X. I guess I use the term torque to say it is adding slight pressure on the edge as opposed to pushing the whole blade into the stone.

Hi Guys,
I dont use pressure.
Some people use torque , twisting the edge towards the stone. I never do this either.
The way i see it is that the less pressure used the less chance of any chips. Or a less jagged edge might be a better way of putting it.
One thing to look out for with the rolling X is applying a bit of extra pressure near the toe coming down off the roll , this can lead to chips at the toe.
I try to not raise the blade during the rolling x but instead just go for a gentle rocking motion.

I think my biggest struggle has been that this is just hard to describe in words and hard to show in a video because whatever the difference between a rolling x stroke and an x stroke is very minor.

For example: "I try to not raise the blade during the rolling x but instead just go for a gentle rocking motion". To me, a rocking motion would lift one side off the stone, then the other. Picturing a see-saw. Heel down/toe up to toe down/heel up. But, in order to keep the blade on the stone, what you have to be doing is slightly increasing and relieving the pressure on the two sides. Even if that pressure is just the weight of the blade.

I'm sorry, I am not trying to be argumentative, but I really am this dumb. My brain just has trouble digesting this.

It has been a while since I tried honing without any torque. I'm curious if with more experience if without it I can get any feeling from the stone. Fortunately so far I have not run into any chipping that I can see in my loupe.

I think there is a lot of confusion due to semantics. Best way to understand this is to use a sharpie marker. Make a couple of passes on the stone or film or whatever taking care that the spine never lifts off the hone and the pressure is balanced naturally between edge and spine. Examine the bevel and see where it hits. Where it doesn't hit, make it hit, at least fleetingly. Eventually you got your stroke figured out.

Another revealing drill is to lay the razor on the hone and gently press the heel down onto the stone with a finger near the edge, then without sliding the razor up or down the hone, press the toe down with another finger. Slowly decrease the pressure of one finger and increase pressure with the other. Rock the razor back and forth using just those two lightly pressing fingers, heel and toe. Try to emulate this motion and this shifting of contact WITHOUT the fingers pressing heel and toe. When you got that nailed, stroke the razor along the stone while doing it. There. You got a perfect rolling x stroke.

For those who hone in hand, there is an even easier way to achieve this. Roll the hone from left to right slightly with each stroke, like a boat gently rocking, as you stroke the razor, and rocking it back toward the left at the end of the stroke and during the turnaround. Again, you have a perfect rolling x, but maybe with less challenge to your hand/eye coordination. Soon it will feel very natural while you are x stroking, beginning the stroke with the hone rolled slightly toward the left, then gradually rolling it toward the right. The weight of the razor will almost do it automatically.

I think that rocking test you mentioned is perfect for me. It's very clear how it needs to roll. Thank you.

Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

I think there is a lot of confusion due to semantics. Best way to understand this is to use a sharpie marker. Make a couple of passes on the stone or film or whatever taking care that the spine never lifts off the hone and the pressure is balanced naturally between edge and spine. Examine the bevel and see where it hits. Where it doesn't hit, make it hit, at least fleetingly. Eventually you got your stroke figured out.

Another revealing drill is to lay the razor on the hone and gently press the heel down onto the stone with a finger near the edge, then without sliding the razor up or down the hone, press the toe down with another finger. Slowly decrease the pressure of one finger and increase pressure with the other. Rock the razor back and forth using just those two lightly pressing fingers, heel and toe. Try to emulate this motion and this shifting of contact WITHOUT the fingers pressing heel and toe. When you got that nailed, stroke the razor along the stone while doing it. There. You got a perfect rolling x stroke.

For those who hone in hand, there is an even easier way to achieve this. Roll the hone from left to right slightly with each stroke, like a boat gently rocking, as you stroke the razor, and rocking it back toward the left at the end of the stroke and during the turnaround. Again, you have a perfect rolling x, but maybe with less challenge to your hand/eye coordination. Soon it will feel very natural while you are x stroking, beginning the stroke with the hone rolled slightly toward the left, then gradually rolling it toward the right. The weight of the razor will almost do it automatically.

I was going to interject but I have nothing to add to that. That is basically exactly what I do. It really just takes enough.time doing it to get to the point that you feel it.

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

I was going to interject but I have nothing to add to that. That is basically exactly what I do. It really just takes enough.time doing it to get to the point that you feel it.

I may have rocked some razors and it just completely clarified the whole thing. Before I felt like i was chasing the sharpie with some random motion hoping it may work. Now I have a clear way to test the motion I should be going for.