Thread: Straight Razors Dull Despite Little Use

Originally Posted by Tathra11

Here are some more good pics taken looking straight down onto the apex when checking if the bevel is set. As said earlier, you need plenty of good light shining directly onto the apex and a good loupe.

Here we are looking straight down onto the edge and we see a white line. Thats light reflecting off the edge because the bevels dont form an apex. The bevel is not set


This pic is taken after more honing. But you can still see some light reflecting off the edge. The sparklies as we call em. Getting closer but the bevel is still not set.

In this pic there is no light reflecting off the edge. An apex is formed and the bevel is set.

At this point we can move on to the next stone in the progression. If you dont set the bevel properly, all subsequent honing is a waste of time. A set bevel is the foundation on which all honing is built. You will NEVER get a true shave ready edge without a properly set bevel to begin with.

I can manage this I think. It probably takes some getting used to to figure out exactly when the bevel is set but I have the loupe and lights.

Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

Directly at the edge itself, and also at the bevel faces. Looking at the edge in the edge-on view, with the strong work light already mentioned and a good loupe such as the one I recommend, the Belomo 10x Triplet, you will see tiny points of reflection where there is a chip or divot or unimproved part on the apex. The edge, ideally, is not even visible. Looking at the bevel, you look for where the bevel is making contact all the way out to the apex, and where it is not. Where the bevel is a single continuous surface, and where it is broken into two strips that are a slight angle to each other and therefore reflect the light separately from one another. Either case, edge sparklies or incomplete bevel facet, call for more work on the bevel setter.

There are several pics on this page that might help to illustrate what I am talking about, and a couple that also show a very obvious burr. The incomplete bevel pics tell you that the bevel is not set, and it is pointless to jump up to a finer grit.
Setting the Bevel with the Hybrid Burr Method



A LOT of honers do not deliberately raise a burr. It can be done. Using the burr is perhaps a little easier to understand, though. And yes, it should only ever be done once, unless you severely damage the edge, maybe by banging it against the sink or faucet. Simple refresh of the edge after normal use and wear only requires a visit to your finishing stone or film. Your razor, but if you go back further in the progression you are honing away steel that does not have to be honed away. Similarly, if you set your bevel correctly and later you decide to return to the bevel setter, you are wasting steel. It's your steel to waste as you see fit, but it is unnecessary. Your new razor should last a couple hundred years. Maybe 30 years of hard use. Why burn it up in half that time? Leave some steel there for your grandkids to play with.With one specific honing style under your belt, trying another way is pretty easy. I have had guys learn my way, and get bored with it, because they thrive on challenge, so they jump into Jnats, Coticules, slates, Arkies, whatever. Just go at it with your credit card at the high ready, will still frustrate, but not as much as it would otherwise, after first mastering ONE style of honing.

Understood. I think visual will work well enough, maybe on some bad razors I'll raise a bevel and look carefully at it to develop an idea of what exactly it looks like when it's done, although "you shouldn't be able to see any light on the edge" makes sense.

Question: What far in the honing progression would you normally go with a razor that you know was well honed, but has been dulled by poor technique of stropping/shaving?

I understand the principle that, to minimize waste, ideally you would work backwards through the progression from leather strop -> linen strop -> pasted strop or alternative -> finishing stone -> 8k -> 4k -> 1k, each time you go for a coarser medium you would work your way back up the progression back up to leather strop until you have a nice edge.

I'm mainly curious how deep you would expect to go in order to recover an edge like this. I wonder if a 0.5 micron pasted linen strop would typically be enough to straighten out an edge that has been rolled slightly by somewhat excessive strop pressure or high shaving angle.

Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

I will caution you, however, to NOT mix and match honing styles. You have a guru now. Follow him. Don't rely on your own understanding of what works with what. If your guru recommends raising a burr, raise a burr. If your guru recommends not, then don't. If you want to hone my way, hone my way, all the way. Random technique gives random results. mixed up technique gives confused results. Stick with your Sensei's way until you are consistently getting at least a professional grade edge on your razors, before you try another approach. The well trodden path is the easiest and will get you to yoru destination the quickest and cheapest. If he gets great edges, and you want his results, use his way, all the way, no excuses or second guessing. There is no reason why, with a willing teacher and room in your budget for the necessary tools, you can't be getting excellent edges within a week or two. This does NOT have to take months or years. I have had many students get better than professional quality edges by their second attempt, a few on the first attempt, equalling my own usual edge quality. It's all about staying on a well marked path, and not straying until you master it.

With one specific honing style under your belt, trying another way is pretty easy. I have had guys learn my way, and get bored with it, because they thrive on challenge, so they jump into Jnats, Coticules, slates, Arkies, whatever. Just go at it with your credit card at the high ready, will still frustrate, but not as much as it would otherwise, after first mastering ONE style of honing.

These are my sentiments exactly. For the most part, my default answer at this point would be to ask your knife guy teacher. I want it to be clear though that I'm not abandoning giving you advice but I also don't want to muddy the water. This is both for your sake and for your teacher's sake. I do echo what CCR has said about sticking with your teacher. If I tell you something contradictory to what he says then I'm not helping either one of you. If it is only for the sake of education then it can wait. It should not take you forever, again as CCR has said, to learn the method that he's teaching you. If it were me taking my time to help you learn this and you came back to me asking, "what about this method, what about that method?" It would be frustrating to me and my response would be, "Listen, if you want me to take my time to teach you, then learn it as I'm showing it to you because I think that's the best route for you to go. Once you have demonstrated that you know how to do it the way I'm showing you, then we can talk about other methods." Having said that, and to the extent that I don't feel as though it conflicts with what he is saying. My answer to your question about going back in the progression would be try the pasted strop first. That chromoxide paste is aggressive enough that it should bring that edge back up.If the pasted canvas doesn't quite get you there then try the finisher. Just bear in mind that the razor I sent you was honed with one layer of electrical tape. It may even be that a flax linen strop (the one I sent you is not linen. It is cotton canvas) would do enough, and possibly even leather depending on what type. Boarhide, for instance, is more aggressive than cowhide which is more aggressive than goat hide. Still, I think it is in everyone's best interest, mainly yours, to ask your teacher. He is in the position to be of the most help to you since he can give you hands-on in person training and show you why that's right. I'm still sending you the love (philos) not casting you away. That is why I'm telling you to ask your teacher

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

He is in the position to be of the most help to you since he can give you hands-on in person training and show you why that's right. I'm still sending you the love (philos) not casting you away. That is why I'm telling you to ask your teacher

He doesn't even use a canvas strop, he uses this weirdly shaped antique coticle (which apparently has similar properties of causing micro-convexity near the apex.) I did ask him about this, his reaction was essentially "they do the same thing I think ¯\_(ツ)_/¯". He doesn't have some sort of structure that he has been reinforcing by doing this as a job for decades, he's just a dude who likes straight razors and wanted to learn to get good at sharpening them, similar to me but he's far more into it.

At this point more than anyone I'm following in the footsteps of scienceofsharp (which my guy also told me to read through thoroughly, not just this forum,) I think I have a decent method at this point. Essentially, starting from a razor with good geometry but a very dull blade:

* Hone each side of the razor on 1k until it no longer appears visible under direct bright light with 10x loupe (or if I can't trust my eyes, raise a burr.)
* Do some back and forth strokes while easing off on pressure. Finish with some edge-trailing strokes on both sides.
* Move onto 4k, lighter pressure this time, edge trailing the entire time, similarly ease off on the already very light pressure as I'm moving onto the 8k.
* Same thing on 8k, this time extremely light pressure.
* 10-20 back and forth laps on the pasted strop with ~100-200 grams of pressure.
* ~20 back and forths on the cloth side of my strop with the same pressure (probably canvas)
* Exactly the same thing on leather strop.

This seems like a strong coherent and evidence based method I can follow, which is very similar to the method my guy taught me with the exception of a canvas strop instead of finishing stones. As I will likely not have to set a bevel any time soon, unless I accidentally destroy one of my razors, probably only the lsat 3-4 points will be tested any time soon.

Pasted strop seems to have solid results without putting tape on the spine, just taking it bare to the canvas strop, I'll shave test with that later this week. I'll remember to tape it if I have to go back to the 8k.

Trial and error is also a good teacher. Fortuitously beards continue to grow so you have constantly renewed media to try your experiments out on. That's one of the beautiful aspects of this pursuit. Learn a method, then learn something else. A lot of the time you'll stumble onto things that work well. Keep at it, keep trying new things, and keep learning. One day before long you'll be giving advice to others who are new

I gotta say this. Glad your getting somewhere with the help your receiving. But very soon in the near future, your going to look back in all this and say to yourself.....

I've over analyzed all this, and made it more difficult than was necessary.

Quit trying so hard, just do it. We learn by failure. Like riding a bike. Those that can, are the ones who crashed many of times, only to get back on, till they've tamed the beast.

Accomplishments always comes after failures. So relax, expect to fall flat on your face at first. It'll all become as natural as breathing air, one day.

Setting a bevel on a razor, depending on condition, can take several hours in capable hands, even if its broken into several days.

That's no lie, coming from a guy whose been putting steel to stone, since I was 8 years old. I've always had a fascination of how sharp I could get a piece of steel, no matter what it was. Straights are a whole different world than knives, but still based off the same process of honing any edged tool.

Its simple, till its not. When its not, walk away, come back another day.

Spoken from true experience right there!

It will all come together. It just takes time. And when you think you got it figured out another razor will slap you down and show you you dont know it all yet. Just keep at it and keep learning. After a few years of honing you will still find a razor that will give you a hard time. It happens. And dont try to hone for hours on the same blade in one sitting!

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Trial and error is also a good teacher. Fortuitously beards continue to grow so you have constantly renewed media to try your experiments out on. That's one of the beautiful aspects of this pursuit. Learn a method, then learn something else. A lot of the time you'll stumble onto things that work well. Keep at it, keep trying new things, and keep learning. One day before long you'll be giving advice to others who are new

True, true. I tried shaving with your razor after some pasted strop action. It felt alien, to my skin it felt dull and sticky, but it was taking the hair clean off without a fight too. I've never experienced that before.

Originally Posted by outback

I gotta say this. Glad your getting somewhere with the help your receiving. But very soon in the near future, your going to look back in all this and say to yourself.....

I've over analyzed all this, and made it more difficult than was necessary.

After reading ScienceOfSharp, I somewhat disagree. I probably would never have bought a pasted strop or a coticle stone without seeing his SEM observations of what happens to the apex when you use one of those, which would have subverted my results for a long time likely, unless I just bought exactly all of the same gear as a well known honer and followed the entire process from scratch (something I never really had an interest in doing because most skilled honers buy high end expensive equipment.) I suppose if I continued getting awful results for long enough I probably would have tried to copy the entire gear setup of a master honer though.

I get the vibe from some folks here that you dislike doing analysis, strongly prefer to just do manual trial and error until you get results.

To me, this is a very alien mindset, especially now that I work for a forensic engineer. Just thinking and analyzing what is happening to the steel at various stages of the process is very enjoyable to me, one of the more stimulating things I've ever taken part in easily. I come from a world where there is no point continuing unless you have some idea of what you were previously doing wrong. No fear at all of failure, just a different POV.

I run into exactly the same thing in carpentry. I spent over a year finishing a project of Chess board styled end-grain cutting boards, as I kept running into problems that I found more interesting than making cutting boards. This drove the carpenters I speak to crazy. "Just burn the wood and start over!" I enjoyed it thoroughly. https://imgur.com/a/exTurED

Originally Posted by rickytimothy

He doesn't even use a canvas strop, he uses this weirdly shaped antique coticle (which apparently has similar properties of causing micro-convexity near the apex.) I did ask him about this, his reaction was essentially "they do the same thing I think ¯\_(ツ)_/¯". He doesn't have some sort of structure that he has been reinforcing by doing this as a job for decades, he's just a dude who likes straight razors and wanted to learn to get good at sharpening them, similar to me but he's far more into it.

At this point more than anyone I'm following in the footsteps of scienceofsharp (which my guy also told me to read through thoroughly, not just this forum,) I think I have a decent method at this point. Essentially, starting from a razor with good geometry but a very dull blade:

* Hone each side of the razor on 1k until it no longer appears visible under direct bright light with 10x loupe (or if I can't trust my eyes, raise a burr.)
* Do some back and forth strokes while easing off on pressure. Finish with some edge-trailing strokes on both sides.
* Move onto 4k, lighter pressure this time, edge trailing the entire time, similarly ease off on the already very light pressure as I'm moving onto the 8k.
* Same thing on 8k, this time extremely light pressure.
* 10-20 back and forth laps on the pasted strop with ~100-200 grams of pressure.
* ~20 back and forths on the cloth side of my strop with the same pressure (probably canvas)
* Exactly the same thing on leather strop.

This seems like a strong coherent and evidence based method I can follow, which is very similar to the method my guy taught me with the exception of a canvas strop instead of finishing stones. As I will likely not have to set a bevel any time soon, unless I accidentally destroy one of my razors, probably only the lsat 3-4 points will be tested any time soon.

Pasted strop seems to have solid results without putting tape on the spine, just taking it bare to the canvas strop, I'll shave test with that later this week. I'll remember to tape it if I have to go back to the 8k.

Your razor, your face, your time. And I won't bug you anymore about this, I promise, but I still say you should exactly follow your chosen teacher until you are getting edges as good as he, or even a tiny bit better. You will still "get it" eventually by inventing your own method, so no biggie, and it's a journey, not a step, but I remember my wanderings in the honing wilderness and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, especially now, in the information age and with next day delivery, online global commerce. Start with that solid, established baseline. All experimentation, to be valid, must have a control group for comparison.

Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

Your razor, your face, your time. And I won't bug you anymore about this, I promise, but I still say you should exactly follow your chosen teacher until you are getting edges as good as he, or even a tiny bit better. You will still "get it" eventually by inventing your own method, so no biggie, and it's a journey, not a step, but I remember my wanderings in the honing wilderness and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, especially now, in the information age and with next day delivery, online global commerce. Start with that solid, established baseline. All experimentation, to be valid, must have a control group for comparison.

This is exactly what I intend to do, only I'm following the method outlined in detail here: https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/04/1...-razor-honing/ instead of the exact steps my sharpener friend uses.

The only variation I'm currently making to his setup, is I use a king 1k and Norton 4k/8k instead of his intentionally bad diamond plate + king 6k setup, using a cotton canvas pasted strop instead of his denim, I don't have a balsa strop, then I believe I'm using a clean canvas and clean cowhide leather instead of whatever he is using, which I believe involves a step of loaded leather and different clean cloth. I may well build the balsa strop that you personally recommended me as he recommends it as well (it's just a space consideration, I have a small room to store all of these in.)

I'm also following in his footsteps for the direction of the blade and pressure he uses. I believe this is easily close enough to his method to get me a really good edge from scratch (haven't tried it from scratch yet.)

After seeing his demonstration with the scanning electron microscope of how huge of a difference a pasted cloth strop can make, which was probably quite poorly understood before he ran these experiments, I do appreciate the wisdom of following the exact method of someone who has found one that works, I'm past the point of assuming certain steps aren't relevant. He does say himself that he has done it without the balsa strop and got good results though, just better results with it.