Thread: Uneven hone wear

Hi Kemal,

If you previously dulled the edge on glass, (to make sure it did not shave anything anymore), and it now shaves hair again along the entire edge, then you can be completely confident that it has a complete bevel. Even if that bevel does not completely makes you happy, it still is technically a good bevel. All that matters for the shave, is that both bevel faces are completely flat and developed all the way to the very edge.
If the razor was previously dulled, the very edge can only start gaining new sharpness on a flat hone, when that goal is reached. The only reason for ever dulling an edge on glass, is just that. It won't straighten out a bevel with uneven sides. It just allows you to be sure the bevel stage is done. Ready to go the finer hones and start refining the very edge. Your success at that will define how well the edge eventually shaves.
The fact that the bevel is uneven, is no big deal for the shaving abilities of the razor. It may bother you of course, but it doesn't bother the razor.

If there is a clear difference in width between both bevel sides, you could work on the narrow side with a bevel setting hone, till that side is wider (the opposite side becomes narrower at the same time, so watch out)

If both bevel sides have tapering widths that are each other's complement, there's not a lot you can do about it. The razor may be slightly warped, or there might be some uneveness in the way it was grind. The slightest deviation in a razors geometry shows up in the shape of the bevel. But that doesn't mean it can't be a great shaver!

Now. You say the hone wear looks uneven too, and that suggests that the previous honer may have applied uneven pressure. Problems in blade geometry usually only show up at the bevel and not at the hone wear. Working it out takes a lot of experience, and one has to always ask whether it is worth the steel removal. If the razor is capable to develop a good bevel (something we already know), why hone away a layer of steel of the spine to fix a problem that only affects the razors on a cosmetic level? Over the years of honing and carefully maintaining that razor will slowly even out the spine wear anyway.

But for the sake of being complete, and not because I am recommending this to someone with limited experience, you could tape the edge (not the spine) and hone on the DMT 1200 till the spine wear looks nice and even on both sides.
Next, remove the tape from the edge, dull on glass to make sure it does not shave arm hair any longer, and hone till the bevel is complete again. That might take a while, because with the new spine geometrics, the new bevel will look different too. Some parts will only start responding when the entire bevel approaches its new shape. This is advanced honing, more of a restoration job actually.
Based on the pictures, I would not choose this option, but refine the edge as it is and enjoy the shaves.

I'm not really familiar with your finer hones, such as the Mitsufune, the Chinese hone and the MST Thuringian. I can't really offer much advice on how to refine the current edge, but I'm sure you'll get there.

Good luck,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

Hi Kemal,

If you previously dulled the edge on glass, (to make sure it did not shave anything anymore), and it now shaves hair again along the entire edge, then you can be completely confident that it has a complete bevel. Even if that bevel does not completely makes you happy, it still is technically a good bevel. All that matters for the shave, is that both bevel faces are completely flat and developed all the way to the very edge.
If the razor was previously dulled, the very edge can only start gaining new sharpness on a flat hone, when that goal is reached. The only reason for ever dulling an edge on glass, is just that. It won't straighten out a bevel with uneven sides. It just allows you to be sure the bevel stage is done. Ready to go the finer hones and start refining the very edge. Your success at that will define how well the edge eventually shaves.
The fact that the bevel is uneven, is no big deal for the shaving abilities of the razor. It may bother you of course, but it doesn't bother the razor.

If there is a clear difference in width between both bevel sides, you could work on the narrow side with a bevel setting hone, till that side is wider (the opposite side becomes narrower at the same time, so watch out)

If both bevel sides have tapering widths that are each other's complement, there's not a lot you can do about it. The razor may be slightly warped, or there might be some uneveness in the way it was grind. The slightest deviation in a razors geometry shows up in the shape of the bevel. But that doesn't mean it can't be a great shaver!

Now. You say the hone wear looks uneven too, and that suggests that the previous honer may have applied uneven pressure. Problems in blade geometry usually only show up at the bevel and not at the hone wear. Working it out takes a lot of experience, and one has to always ask whether it is worth the steel removal. If the razor is capable to develop a good bevel (something we already know), why hone away a layer of steel of the spine to fix a problem that only affects the razors on a cosmetic level? Over the years of honing and carefully maintaining that razor will slowly even out the spine wear anyway.

But for the sake of being complete, and not because I am recommending this to someone with limited experience, you could tape the edge (not the spine) and hone on the DMT 1200 till the spine wear looks nice and even on both sides.
Next, remove the tape from the edge, dull on glass to make sure it does not shave arm hair any longer, and hone till the bevel is complete again. That might take a while, because with the new spine geometrics, the new bevel will look different too. Some parts will only start responding when the entire bevel approaches its new shape. This is advanced honing, more of a restoration job actually.
Based on the pictures, I would not choose this option, but refine the edge as it is and enjoy the shaves.

I'm not really familiar with your finer hones, such as the Mitsufune, the Chinese hone and the MST Thuringian. I can't really offer much advice on how to refine the current edge, but I'm sure you'll get there.

Good luck,
Bart.

Bart,

Thanks for the advice. The blade currently passes arm-hair test after DMT 1200 easily, but I'll still take your course of action on taping the edge and evening out spine wear (after verifying that there is no warping on the blade). I'll report back here the results, hopefully within a week.
Kemal

That's entirely up to you, my friend. Please keep in mind that there are far more possibilities to ruin a good razor, than there are ways to improve it. I've sketched the rough idea for what you're about to try. When in doubt with something, I really urge you to stop and ask more questions. This won't work if you don't have a fair idea of what you are doing. It doesn't get right by accident.

That said, it isn't exactly rocket science either. Someone with decent dexterity can do it. Once the edge is taped, keep the edge and spine in contact with the hone at all times, just as with all honing. Focus some pressure mainly on the spine, but don't go overboard. It's always better to go slow. Don't be afraid of doing lengthwise strokes. (beware of getting scratches on the tang) You're aiming for spine wear that's even and equal width on both sides.

Good luck,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

That's entirely up to you, my friend. Please keep in mind that there are far more possibilities to ruin a good razor, than there are ways to improve it. I've sketched the rough idea for what you're about to try. When in doubt with something, I really urge you to stop and ask more questions. This won't work if you don't have a fair idea of what you are doing. It doesn't get right by accident.

That said, it isn't exactly rocket science either. Someone with decent dexterity can do it. Once the edge is taped, keep the edge and spine in contact with the hone at all times, just as with all honing. Focus some pressure mainly on the spine, but don't go overboard. It's always better to go slow. Don't be afraid of doing lengthwise strokes. (beware of getting scratches on the tang) You're aiming for spine wear that's even and equal width on both sides.

Good luck,
Bart.

Bart,

Thanks for the great advise. Finally I found some time to do it and I am happy to report that I now have an even looking hone wear on the spine and also even looking edge on both sides of the blade. Amazingly, it took me less than 10 mins to do it. What a fast cutter this DMT 1200 is!!

It seems that there were no problems on the grinding nor were there warping issues. Good workmanship!

However, I am still unable to get a smooth shave from this blade. The blade passes hanging hair test after 1 micron diamond paste (but not after 8000 mitsufune waterstone) which I further refine with Cr2O3 paste, but still cannot get a shave as good as e.g. my old g. johnson wedge. What am I missing here?

kemal

You rely too much on paste for good keenness.
You should be able to get a great shave right of either one of your fine hones: the Mitsume, the Thuringian or the Chinese 12K. With "great shave", I mean completely free of any pulling sensation. Only then you could try some conservative experimentation with pastes to find out what you like best for feel. The pastes can add some extra "glide" to your shaving experience and help the blade to cut the whiskers even easier. (I hardly ever use pastes myself, because I feel I can get the same without them)

Anyway, since all your pastes have likely been convexing the edge to some extent, the edge will no longer respond to honing, because the very edge will not make good contact with a flat honing surface any longer. That does not take long to undo.

Here's what I propose. Drag the edge, with no more pressure than the weight of the blade over a beer bottle or some other glass object. Try if it still shaves your arm hair. Repeat till the razor no longer shaves. For my arm hair it takes only one stroke, but some people's arm hair cuts easier, so it might be 2 or 3 times.
Now that the razor is dull by the slightest possible amount, start working on the Naniwa 3K. Keep at it till the razor shaves arm hair really well. When it does, you know with absolute certainty that the bevel sides are: A. flat, and B. fully developed. Check that it does shave along the full length of the razor.
Once there, proceed to the Mistume 8K. I have no idea about the number of laps, because I have no experience on this hone. Stay on it till the keenness peaks, probe with the TPT, HHT, or MAT ("Mow Arm hair Test").
Finish with 150 laps on the Chinese 12K. Use with water only.

Strop and test shave. This progression should give you a very good edge. Only then, try 10 laps or so on a pasted strop.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

You rely too much on paste for good keenness.
You should be able to get a great shave right of either one of your fine hones: the Mitsume, the Thuringian or the Chinese 12K. With "great shave", I mean completely free of any pulling sensation. Only then you could try some conservative experimentation with pastes to find out what you like best for feel. The pastes can add some extra "glide" to your shaving experience and help the blade to cut the whiskers even easier. (I hardly ever use pastes myself, because I feel I can get the same without them)

Anyway, since all your pastes have likely been convexing the edge to some extent, the edge will no longer respond to honing, because the very edge will not make good contact with a flat honing surface any longer. That does not take long to undo.

Here's what I propose. Drag the edge, with no more pressure than the weight of the blade over a beer bottle or some other glass object. Try if it still shaves your arm hair. Repeat till the razor no longer shaves. For my arm hair it takes only one stroke, but some people's arm hair cuts easier, so it might be 2 or 3 times.
Now that the razor is dull by the slightest possible amount, start working on the Naniwa 3K. Keep at it till the razor shaves arm hair really well. When it does, you know with absolute certainty that the bevel sides are: A. flat, and B. fully developed. Check that it does shave along the full length of the razor.
Once there, proceed to the Mistume 8K. I have no idea about the number of laps, because I have no experience on this hone. Stay on it till the keenness peaks, probe with the TPT, HHT, or MAT ("Mow Arm hair Test").
Finish with 150 laps on the Chinese 12K. Use with water only.

Strop and test shave. This progression should give you a very good edge. Only then, try 10 laps or so on a pasted strop.

Best regards,
Bart.

Bart,

I recently got a new coticule, which by the way has the marking 4+++. What does that mean?

I am now planning one of your methods for coticule for sharpening this razor. I especially liked unicot for its simplicity. Do you think I should use this or try your other method dilucot for this particular razor?

Thanks,
Kemal

4+++?

I have no idea. Maybe if you posted a picture?

Working with a Coticule, the Unicot procedure is in my opinion the easiest way to get an edge that combines the legendary smoothness with excellent keenness. You can achieve the same with other paradigms, but it takes a bit more experience with the particular Coticule.

So, yes, try Unicot first, it should give you a good idea of what the hone is capable of. It gives you an idea what to aim for with "Dilucot" and other methods.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

4+++?

I have no idea. Maybe if you posted a picture?

Bart.

Bart,

Below was written with a pencil on the honing surface:
200x60
SL
4+++

And, with my first use of the stone they were all gone

Kemal

200x60: size in mm.
If so, that's a pretty large one you got.

SL: SLate back? or SeLect grade?

4+++: I have no clue.

Where did you buy it?

Originally Posted by Bart

200x60: size in mm.
If so, that's a pretty large one you got.

SL: SLate back? or SeLect grade?

4+++: I have no clue.

Where did you buy it?

Yep, it is 200x60 mm select grade stone. I got it from an italien vendor R.M.A. Tools, Utensili per la lavorazione del legno. He provides excellent service with a very good price.

But, I am still puzzled what that 4+++ mean? Can it be related to the speed of the stone? Mine is quite soft. I can easily scratch the surface with my very soft thumb-nail.

Kemal