Thread: Leo's Daddy Learns to Hone (picture heavy)

Back luck on the scales Mate.

ok I know very very little about synthectics but heres what I do.

1, a coti with water will polish the edge as smooth as any other finisher, and will easily refresh a dulling (starting to pull) edge
2, a coti with slurry will cut as fast as a 1k, for real!
3, A yellow coti used both with slurry and water, and of course the right techniques will take you from a breadknifed edge through to the sharpest smoothest edge you could desire. however for real heavy work a 400/1000 is what I use, once the bevel is set enough to pass tnt then I am on to the coti all the way. I very very rarely use the BBW side of my beautiful stone, as I find I simply do not need it.

Seriously as said before in this thread, if you start with a sharp razor, draw the edge over a glass then follow Barts technique for the unicot method, you will have the finest smoothest shaving egde you could wish for, Honestly a 12 yr old with no experience could do it with the proper guidance.

Again I ask you to please just try it? it will take you an hour tops and give you a very simple straightforward method of getting a Razor very shave ready, what do you have to lose?

Best wishes and good luck, its a wonderful adventure that you have embarked on Greg

Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

Again I ask you to please just try it? it will take you an hour tops and give you a very simple straightforward method of getting a Razor very shave ready, what do you have to lose?

Here's my problem with the physics/geometry of the Unicot aka double bevel method. What happens when my razor gets dull again? I can't just take it to the coticule with no tape and touch up the first bevel, because only the second bevel has been doing the actual cutting. Fixing the first bevel wouldn't suffice, I'd have to set another second bevel as well.

And I can't just add a piece of tape and touch up the second bevel, because now with the original second bevel gone, the edge of the first bevel is super-blunt instead of just a little bit blunt. The first bevel would HAVE to be set again before a second bevel could be. Otherwise the second bevel will get wider and wider every time I touch up the razor.

So essentially, I'm dooming myself to requiring taping the blade for touch-ups. And not only that, I'd have to go through the ENTIRE Unicot procedure every darn time I want to touch up the razor, as would anyone else I lend/sell/give the razor to.

Bah.

Originally Posted by olafurson

Plus, this way, now these scales have even more CHARACTER, and I've got a story I can tell Leo!

Haha, all true. Best of luck with that

Edit: I also might have to go coti hunting after christmas. Honing is just another adventure.

Hey all, I just saw this thread. I was never annoyed by the use of tape. I tape alot of razors. I think Greg just used the wrong words. No offense to anyone here, especially Bart, who has way more honing experience than I do.

I, however, was annoyed by the razor. It was one of those wedges that required multiple layers of tape to match the ugly bevel that it previously had before both Bart or I got our hands on it.

I'll send you a PM Bart to clear things up.

Originally Posted by Aquanin

I, however, was annoyed by the razor. It was one of those wedges that required multiple layers of tape to match the ugly bevel that it previously had before both Bart or I got our hands on it.

THAT's what I meant.

That poor, sad razor has obviously had so many hands, and so many hones put on it over the years that I can literally see four different bevels on it. I bet at least one of them was Bart's once upon a time. It's definitely a blade that has been around the world once or twice.

Again, Aquanin, I'm terribly sorry I spoke for you. I meant no offense.

At the moment, the American shaves well.

I'm scared of the day when it doesn't, though........ do you recall how many layers of tape you used?

Originally Posted by olafurson

Here's my problem with the physics/geometry of the Unicot aka double bevel method. What happens when my razor gets dull again? I can't just take it to the coticule with no tape and touch up the first bevel, because only the second bevel has been doing the actual cutting. Fixing the first bevel wouldn't suffice, I'd have to set another second bevel as well.

And I can't just add a piece of tape and touch up the second bevel, because now with the original second bevel gone, the edge of the first bevel is super-blunt instead of just a little bit blunt. The first bevel would HAVE to be set again before a second bevel could be. Otherwise the second bevel will get wider and wider every time I touch up the razor.

So essentially, I'm dooming myself to requiring taping the blade for touch-ups. And not only that, I'd have to go through the ENTIRE Unicot procedure every darn time I want to touch up the razor, as would anyone else I lend/sell/give the razor to.

Bah.

Not so my friend, once your razor is dull you will not have lost the second bevel just dulled the very very edge of it, as with any razor, so for touch ups you will only need to add a piece of tape and touch up on the coti with water, it will take a few touch ups before you have to reset the initial bevel and go through the whole process again, so if you shave everyday with the same razor thats at least a good year or more until you may have to spend 1/2 hour re-honing.
Also if its the thought of the double bevel that you dont dig, you can go with the dilocut method, less than an hour from properly dull, no tape, you or anyone else can just touch up as needed dead simple.
Please understand I am just offering a simple way of achieving a superb shaving edge, thats within reach of anyone wanting to learn to hone.

how about this for suggestion:
- lap your hones (yes, do it again just before honing again), mostly the 1k and 4k
- get a proper bevel using the 1k norton
- finish setting the bevel using the 4k norton
- get the final edge on the 8k norton
- strop and shave
- repeat previous three steps (use pyramids) until your razor shaves well
- use the coticule with just water, then strop and shave to see what difference it will make compared to the norton 8k

note: multiple bevels sound like a problem with the razor. If it was honed without tape before there will be a single bevel only.

Originally Posted by gugi

how about this for suggestion:
- lap your hones (yes, do it again just before honing again), mostly the 1k and 4k
- get a proper bevel using the 1k norton
- finish setting the bevel using the 4k norton
- get the final edge on the 8k norton
- strop and shave
- repeat previous three steps (use pyramids) until your razor shaves well
- use the coticule with just water, then strop and shave to see what difference it will make compared to the norton 8k

Good plan!

Before anything else: in my humble opinion, you're brewing up a recipe that will put a lot of future frustration on your path. That recipe is called "jumping tracks". It's best to stick with one tried and trued paradigm, when you're new to honing. Right now, from what I read in your posts, I think the best approach for you is pyramids on the Norton 4K/8K. If you get it shaving, a few swipes on the Coticule won't do any harm.

Originally Posted by olafurson

It seems apparent to me I misunderstood the ideal use of the coticule, and when I asked a friend on the SRP board which hone I should get if I wanted only one hone, I asked the wrong question.

There is no ideal use of a Coticule. You can use it as a finisher, you can use it for setting bevels, you can use it as a mediator before another finisher. And for each of those uses I could spell you out what the advantages and the disadvantages were, just like that could be done for other hones.

Originally Posted by olafurson

I'm trying to sort all this out in my little brain, so here is what I took from the videos. Feel free to pick any of this apart if it's not correct:

1.I would like to think of the coticule-with-water as equivalent to perhaps a 10000 grit hone (since I have a Norton 4K/8K to compare to, and the coticule is supposedly "finer" than the Norton 8K).

If you're going to think in grit numbers, you better sell your Coticule and buy Naniwas or Shaptons instead. A Coticule is not finer or rougher than a Norton 8K. Is is just very different. Furthermore, someone with a good honing stroke, will put a better edge on a razor with a 6K hone than a heavy-handed guy with a 16K hone. Not that it means anything, but the Garnets in a Coticule have a median size equivalent to 1.5K, by the way.

Originally Posted by olafurson

2. A coticule with slurry is faster at removing steel, especially with a tiny bit of finger pressure. But it's still pretty darn slow. Let's say... a little slower than the Norton 4000?

More on par with a 1K stone, actually

Originally Posted by olafurson

3. A Belgian Blue Whetstone with slurry can in my mind be thought of as, let's say, a 6000 grit hone. Not as fast as the Norton 4000, not as slow as the Norton 8000 or Coticule.

See the remark above.

Never use a 220 grit hone on a razor, but you already figured that one out, I guess.

Originally Posted by olafurson

Here's my problem with the physics/geometry of the Unicot aka double bevel method. What happens when my razor gets dull again? I can't just take it to the coticule with no tape and touch up the first bevel, because only the second bevel has been doing the actual cutting. Fixing the first bevel wouldn't suffice, I'd have to set another second bevel as well.

You can easily touch up the narrow secondary bevel, with about 30 laps on the Coticule with water. Of course you need to reattach the tape.

Originally Posted by olafurson

And I can't just add a piece of tape and touch up the second bevel, because now with the original second bevel gone, the edge of the first bevel is super-blunt instead of just a little bit blunt.

No. It doesn't get any more blunt than a single bevel. The secondary bevel looses some keenness after a number of shaves, just like a single bevel does.

Originally Posted by olafurson

The first bevel would HAVE to be set again before a second bevel could be. Otherwise the second bevel will get wider and wider every time I touch up the razor.

Yes, it does become wider, but you can still do touch-ups. Even when the secondary bevel has completely wiped out the initial bevel, you can keep doing touch-ups, certainly on a full hollow ground razor.
On the other hand, you can also reduce the width of the secondary bevel by honing without tape. No need to completely reset it.

Originally Posted by olafurson

So essentially, I'm dooming myself to requiring taping the blade for touch-ups. And not only that, I'd have to go through the ENTIRE Unicot procedure every darn time I want to touch up the razor, as would anyone else I lend/sell/give the razor to.

Bah.

If I knew your preference for colorful language, I would have swallowed my comment about Aquanin's razor yesterday.

If you don't like to tape a razor, than don't use that method. It's that simple. But you don't need to go through the entire procedure for touching up the razor.

Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

Good plan!

I second that. Way too many suggestions in this thread. Honing is not that complicated. You'd better focus on learning a good X-stroke, than on finding some magical honing paradigm.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Aquanin

I'll send you a PM Bart to clear things up.

No need to clear things up. We're totally cool.
I just translated Greg's words differently than what he meant. The issue was easily resolved.

Kind regards,
Bart.