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12-03-2009, 09:03 PM #41
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Thanked: 121Again, to the OP
IMHO, you are overthinking the whole process. You are manufacturing boogeymen (the tape, having to redo the initial bevel, etc., etc.) when there is no need to. In so doing, you are multiplying factors and cofactors, trying to balance them in your head, and getting confused. As Bart said, it is not that difficult, as long as you are willing to listen to the voice of experience and not try to logically "think through" the process. That is why I stated in my first post that you should not, at this point, be getting any brainstorms, figuring out shortcuts, etc. Turn off your brain (except for that part that knows how to read), sit down with the Unicot procedure in front of you, and follow it to the letter.
I think Bart's suggestion that you try a progression with the Nortons rather than the coticule is that you just don't seem (to me, or -- I'm guessing here -- to him) to be a coticule kind of guy. Coticules are about romance and mystery and exhalations of the spirit (and such things cannot be quantified in, for example, grit numbers). You seem to be more a rational, scientifically-oriented person. Artificial stones, with assigned grits and a defined process may be more your thing. This is not meant to be snarky. There are multitudes of stones, progressions and techniques because we are all different. There is no right material, no "correct" process. The adventure is in finding your own way. Have fun on the journey.
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12-03-2009, 09:37 PM #42
This is my best thread ever! You guys are awesome.
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies!
I promise I'm not trying to argue, just learn.
I do not believe in magic. However, I know there is more to life than looking under a microscope to see if my razor's edge is perfect enough. And I do NOT want to be one of those guys who brags about how high his hone's grit count is.
I totally agree. That's where I'm coming from, as someone new to the whole honing thing. I spent only one afternoon looking up information on honing, and I found one guy using just a Norton 4k/8k and pyramids, then another guy who likes setting bevels with the Naniwa Superstone 5K better, then a third guy who doesn't use pyramids at all and just uses his thumb to tell when he's done on the 1200 grit diamond stone for bevel setting, etc etc... there are as many "recommended" honing methods as there are stones!!!
What's a noob to do?!
That's the purpose of this thread. I'm trying to distill all that random information down into a permanent, workable solution that works for me.
I am willing to accept that even Lynn Abrams is unable to put a better edge on a blade with a 30K ceramic stone than he can with a 10K or 12K stone, or Bart can with a coticule. Good, great, that limits me to either 10K/12K stones or a coticule for finishing, one of which I already own (the coti). Problem solved, I don't need to look for finish stones anymore. Coticule it is. Not because it's the best, but because it'll work and it's what I have. If I had a Chinese 12K, I'd stick with that. If I had an Escher or Shapton 12K or whatever, same thing. Even in my uneducated state, I can see no reason to have more than one polishing/finishing hone except just for fun. You guys only have to tell me "bevel setting is way more important than the fineness of your finishing polish stone" so many times before I get it. Got it.
I am also willing to accept that nothing over 5K will set a bevel on a razor. I currently own a 4K stone that requires no fancy moves to make it ready to hone except soaking it in a tub of water, and a coticule that takes at least some manipulation (slurrying) to make it capable of honing at the 1K level. Neither of these is particularly attractive to me, and here's why.
First, my argument against the coticule as bevel-setter. It's been suggested that a coticule can finish a razor at least as well as an 8K stone, yet set a bevel as well as a 1K stone just by slurrying the surface up. Don't you understand how that would mess someone up? Why couldn't someone just make a slurry on a Norton 8K and use it just like you're advocating use of the coticule with a slurry? What's the difference? Wouldn't that do the same thing? Has anyone ever tried?
I'm saying, for me, why not just use those precious little voodoo garnets in the coticule for the job they're world-renowned for - finishing - and use some el cheapo steel or ceramic or otherwise artificial jobby for the brute-force bevel-setting stuff?
My coticule was expensive. A 1200 grit hone is cheap and industrial-strength unbreakable, I can get one in diamond-on-steel for, like, $50 from a hundred different websites. I'd rather preserve my rare, special, fancy coticule from the one mine in the whole world that makes them, for my lifetime AND my son's lifetime and HIS son's lifetime, rather than keep slurrying it away little by little. That just feels... wrong. I don't have some big stack of coticules to use, I've only got my one-and-only that I hope to never have to replace.
Which currently leaves me with using my 4K Norton or 1K Norton for setting bevels. Or, I can use my Norton 220/1000 on my kitchen knives and replace it as needed, buy a new 1200 grit hone for bulk razor steel removal that will probably last my lifetime, use the 4K/8K for pyramid work, and the coticule for finishing if I feel like it.
Both of those sound like good ideas to me. For now, since I already own the Norton 1K, I plan to use it and the 4K/8K pyramid per gugi's recommendation during my next session. I might replace it later with the DMT D8E, we'll see.
The pyramid thing seems a little too cookbook for me and I'm doubtful, but I'll take y'all's word for it that it works. Again, we'll see.
Because of these discussions, in my own mind I've ruled out taping (bah!), double-bevelling (bah!), I've ruled out Eschers and Thuringians and barber hones for finishing (for now I'm a Coticule-for-finishing man), I've ruled out under-1000-grit stones (too harsh) and over-8000 grit stones (won't improve the edge more than the Coticule will), and the only piece of equipment I might want to play with that I don't already own is a $50 commonly-available diamond hone. Maybe that's what I should ask Santa for. Done, problem solved as far as equipment goes.
I've also made, and documented making, a handful of dumbass errors that, if I'm lucky, will prevent some other dude (maybe even my son!) from ruining one of his razors or wasting time trying to hone in a way that I know won't work.
Pretty good progress for two days work, I think!
And to the fellow who PM'd me and told me he was looking forward to taking his barber hone to the one-and-only truly shave-ready razor he owns, I say this: don't do it. Consider honing a different, not-shave-ready razor first so you understand what exactly it is your shave-ready razor actually needs!!! If you dull your one good razor, and therefore have nothing to compare your edges to, you're up a creek.
I think it's a grave error suggesting the first hone a newbie should buy is a barber hone or other finishing/maintenance stone. How is anybody supposed to know how to maintain something if he doesn't know what he's maintaining or why!??!?
I am getting the distinct impression that I should have been practicing my honing all along instead of muddling along with razors that maybe weren't as sharp as they could have been. Maybe the first thing I should have done is bought two of the same shave-ready razors - one to practice shaving, dull the other with a bottle and use it to practice honing - and a 4K/8K hone to learn how to make "b" feel like "a" again as soon as possible. I bet I would have saved myself many crappy shaves with less-than-optimal equipment.
Lesson learned. I will teach Leo to hone at least as soon as I teach him to shave.
But before I do, I will try to discover if he approaches life from a grit-count-and-microscopes point of view, a romance-and-mystery point of view, or a balance of both, so I'll know what kind of hones to get him.
Never have I seen a thread that answers the question of "which hone should I buy" with "depends - do you prefer Math or Art?"
Stay tuned for more! This is fun!Last edited by IndianapolisVet; 12-03-2009 at 09:45 PM.
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12-03-2009, 11:12 PM #43
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Thanked: 121You, sir, sound like a very wise father.
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12-04-2009, 12:13 AM #44
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Thanked: 1212Well, It's you that opened Pandora's box. No use complaining now.
That's admirable, and so very recognizable for the naysayer with whom I share this brain. But I can tell you that's exactly how I approached honing during the first few months, and each week I had to swallow some of my pride (build upon years of honing woodworking tools), and follow more experienced guy's guidelines. In the end, razor honing is like learning a musical instrument. At first you copy what your tutor says you to copy. Only later you'll develop a personal style. Maybe I was not totally clear in my earlier post: you can better delete all my posts in this thread and follow one other guy's advice, than mixing it all up.
I totally sympathize with that statement. They all work. It's just a matter of learning how to use them.
You're trying to think in grit numbers again.
Glen says he can do it on a Norton 8K. Bevel setting that is. I have no Norton, but if Glen says so, I'm sure it can be done. Is is as fast as a Coticule? I have no idea.
Because Coticules did not became world-renowned for finishing. In the old days, razors were honed on a Coticule with slurry and mostly finished on paste. At least, that's the gear you'd find in a typical 70 year old shaving drawer in Europe. You can't even finish a Coticule-with-slurry honed edge on a Coticule with water just like that, because you'd get an unpleasant surprise: lack of keenness.
But with a proper procedure you can solve that problem. And that's why it's appealing. One charming natural hone. No soaking. No frequent lapping. No glazing. No overhoning. No harshness. No bevels with deep scratches or ragged edge. Great feedback. Not all that expensive, considering you won't need anything else.
Yes, most of those advantages can be found on other hones, but not all at once. The big disadvantage, or "challenge" as I like to call it? Getting the razor keen enough. Or put otherwise: Bridging the gap between setting a bevel on slurry, and finishing the job on water. Something that can only be tackled with practice, or with a layer of tape. Or by using other hones (but that of course defies the charm of using one hone only).
I have probably honed more razors on mine than you ever will in a decade, unless you start to hone razors for others. I hardly notice any wear. Unless I drop it, I don't think I'll hone through that stone in this lifetime.
But the choice is obviously yours to make, and I'm absolutely convinced that the edges you'll eventually get from your Norton can be just as nice as those from your Coticule. I'm only stating my honest opinion, because your applied logic leads to the wrong conclusions. And before we know it, they spread all over the forum.
I used a DMT-E for setting a bevel on the first 100 razors or so (many restores, so it has seen hard use). I can tell you it has become pretty lame by now. Those nice diamonds do get tired and there are no fresh ones exposed as the hone wears (like in most other hones).
Good plan & Good luck,
Bart.Last edited by Bart; 12-04-2009 at 12:17 AM.
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12-04-2009, 03:25 AM #45
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Thanked: 0Another suggestion from a honing newbie...
Put your hands on a decent (no chips) antique store blade. If you don't have one go looking. Its fun and you might find some nice surprises. I found myself a Dubl Duck Goldie and a Wade Butcher for just a few bucks. Anyway, get something you wouldn't mind messing up.
Now breadknife it. I used the side of an old knife hone I wouldn't use on a razor. Get it nice and dull.
Now you've got yourself a nice start for honing practice. I've been trying to hone up a slightly less than perfect blade for a long time and haven't really been able to tell if I was getting anywhere. It's been frustrating.
So frustrating that I finally decided to just take another older crappier razor that had a frown and a smile in it that I was shying away from and breadknife it and start from scratch.
I did this took it from 1k to 4k to 8k and bam I was shaving arm hair and had a blade that might not really be shave ready IMO but is definitely pretty razor sharp and shows me I'm doing something with my stones.
Now I certainly wouldn't recommend doing this to a nice razor but its worth it to go looking for something to mess up. It will also give you a decent idea of how you're doing. And a confidence boost to boot.
Anyway thats what I did I its really helped me out.
Just a thought.
Robert
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12-04-2009, 07:39 PM #46
Good day, Gentlemen!
I'm taking a day or two in between honing sessions (and shaves) to digest all the information in this thread and in my PM's. Here are my initial thoughts of the day, for anyone who cares.
First, I appreciate all the advice and encouragement. Clearly honing is a skill better taught in person, but I'll muddle through the best I can with videos and forum responses. Understand that, being the scientist I am, it's my nature to postulate, experiment, conclude, revise, and re-postulate.
I have no problem swallowing pride and admitting error, but I also prefer to make my big mistakes on paper if I can help it.
Since Bart brought up the analogy of hone-as-musical-instrument, let me tell you all a little story, that will be followed by a very important question. Once upon a time, I decided I wanted to join the school band. So my school did what I assume they thought was the best thing, and assembled all their available instruments for potential students to mess around with. I held the trumpet to my lips and blew - no sound. I couldn't make my mouth do what was necessary to make sound come out of the darn thing. Same with the trombone, flute, oboe, clarinet... but then came the saxophone. I picked it up, and immediately was able to make it play notes. So I chose that instrument, and stuck with it, and learned to play it skillfully. In previous years I had tried to learn how to play the piano and the guitar, and failed - couldn't master the skill no matter how hard I tried.
So here's the question. Is honing truly like I am describing playing a musical instrument - where each man will hone "best" on a particular style of hone?
What if the only instrument ever available to Louis Armstrong was an electric guitar? Would we know his name today?
Phrased differently, is it your opinion that ANY man can learn to hone on just a coticule, and use it as expertly as he could eventually learn to use any other hone? Or do some guys just "get" the coticule and some don't? Are there dudes that try and try and try the coticule and end up hating it, then pick up the Norton and love it immediately?
Put a third way... if, as Bart has said, "the edges you'll eventually get from your Norton can be just as nice as those from your Coticule", if I spend a year practicing the coticule, will I be able to hone as well as I could if I practiced a year on the Norton? Or do I need to try them all til I find a style that works best for me?
Why would finishing on paste work when finishing on coticule-with-water wouldn't? I would think once the bevel was set, you could finish on whatever you wanted. None of that makes sense to me.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's theoretically possible to go straight from a low grit hone to a high grit hone without a third hone in the middle, right? It'll take longer to grind down the harsh grooves of the low grit hone and get to a fine polish, but it'd still work.
Wouldn't it then still work to go from a slurried coticule to a water-only coticule, if you just accepted the fact that you'll need a buttload of passes on the water-only to wear down the slurry-created grooves??
I'm not saying that's how I want to do it, I'm just asking.
I thought I knew what I wanted to try next, but now I'm not so sure. I have two fine instruments in front of me and don't want to choose the wrong one. I tell you, the coticule looks awfully attractive in its little wooden box, compared to those big ugly Nortons... that have to soak and make a big mess...
Curse you guys and your excessive knowledge. And curse the internet for making every stinking choice in the world available to me all at once.
Fine. I'm going to try the Unicot method, ONCE, and document its success or failure. Maybe if I can convince myself the simple Unicot works, I'll be more willing to give the complicated Dilucot the study time it requires.
I'll try again, just for you Jimmy. And I'd better not annoy Bart too badly if he's the only dude who knows how to explain how to use this thing.
Bart, thank you for telling me not to get the DMT D8E. And to the fellow that I trust who PM'd me and told me to get the coticule in the first place, thank you for telling me that Naniwas and Shaptons take frequent lapping and "swarf up pretty bad". That just took my last non-Norton-non-Coticule pieces of equipment off the negotiating table.
I wonder if getting the BBW/Coti combo was a mistake. Maybe I should have gotten just the coticule, so I wouldn't have the BBW side available to muddy this situation up.
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12-04-2009, 09:05 PM #47
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Thanked: 1212Did he ever try to master all the other instruments in existence? I don't know. Maybe he could have possibly been THE man to make the Hobo a truly popular music. Just like my famous countryman Toots Thielemans made the harmonica acceptable in serious Jazz. What if he played trumpet? Who's to tell. You can get so busy trying all different options in life, that you end up mastering nothing. In my humble opinion, this art called life has a lot to do with making choices and sticking by them.
Most hones, in casu synthetic water hones and diamond hones, refine the edge by replacing coarse scratches with finer scratches. Coticules don't quite work that way. Their large garnets cut deep when they are free to spin in a slurry, between the steel and the surface of the hone. On water, those same garnets are only partially exposed, and can't spin. In a manner of speaking, the edge rides on a bed of microscopical multi-facetted marbles. The garnets now cut extremely shallow and exert more of a polishing effect. Here's a picture of a Unicot edge. The lower part carries the typical "sandblasted" pattern of slurry. The secondary bevel is polished on water.
We use slurry, because the hone is too slow to work with water for any significant steel removal. But slurry has a downside. The very edge bounces with the garnets as well, which is slightly detrimental to it. Basically we are at the same time removing steel from the bevel sides (which has a sharpening effect) and rounding the very edge (a dulling effect). The finer the edge, the less it can withstand the impact with the garnets. At a certain point, the edge will loose as much keenness as it gains from steel removal off the bevel. That limit is determined by the density of the slurry (and by the natural differences between Coticules).
On most Coticules, the edge is not yet sharp enough for finishing at that point. There are a number of options to augment the keenness. Diluting the slurry (too lessen the dulling effect) is one. A secondary bevel is another. Putting it on a high grit synthetic hone works too. And even your BBW with light slurry does the trick, because the garnets in the BBW display far less "slurry dulling", unfortunatly it cuts also much slower.
Bottom line. A set bevel off a Coticule is not yet sharp enough for final finishing it. There has been a lot of debate about this, but I believe this is the same with an edge coming form a synthetic 1K hone, but that edge does carry a sawtooth pattern, which aids its cutting performance, but does not provide a smooth shave for the skin. With a Coticule you are gaining sharpness till the very end, relying on the HHT during the final stages demonstrates that on each razor I hone.
Why all the skepticism? There's a growing group of people making use of a Coticule to its full extent, and several of them are more than capable to compare with other methods. Furthermore the procedures I have gathered to use that hone are fully disclosed and explained, here on SRP in countless threads and on my website. And yet you almost sound as if you would be highly surprised that any of it works.
Respectfully,
Bart.Last edited by Bart; 12-04-2009 at 09:09 PM.
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12-05-2009, 04:01 AM #48
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Thanked: 121My (final) post to the OP
I don't know if Louis Armstrong would have been a great guitar player. I don't know if you would have been better off getting just a yellow coticule rather than a combo stone. I don't know how much a particular stone contributes to one's eventual overall honing skills. I don't know what is "theoretically possible" in a honing progression.
But I do know how to take a dull blade and make it sharp.
As a psychiatrist, I have noted how many very intelligent people get victimized by their own brains. Because it is such a strong tool for them, they depend on it too much. They overthink things. They reason and conjecture and run "thought experiments" in their heads, which is all well and good -- up to a point. That point is reached, I think, when it interferes with decisive, effective action; when thinking takes the place of doing.
Watch a child at play. They enter games with their full selves -- body, spirit, will, imagination. They do not think: "Should I jump?" They just jump. And this play is the basis of all future successful activities. They discover their limits, their abilities, their purpose. And it is done not in the abstract, not in theory, but in the present, and with joy.
I think that is the best orientation to adopt when learning to hone.
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12-05-2009, 04:57 AM #49
Good evening, Gentlemen!
Simple. Ask any newbie on SRP why they haven't tried honing yet, and you'll get this answer: the other guys say it's scaaaaaaaaaary! Oooooh, honing is sooooooo difficult, and I'll ruin my razor, and I'm never going to get my blade sharp, and all these other random dudes on this board are soooooo much more skilled than me!
Anyways, that's how I felt until about three days ago, when Bart says to me "no, seriously, all you need is a coticule and follow this little recipe and you can hone your razor the first time, no big deal."
Pardon my skepticism, I promise I meant no disrespect.
I have been thinking HARD about this other random thread and rather than post in his thread (there's no convincing that guy) I think I'll post my own thoughts in my own thread.
I believe I know what exactly IanS did wrong, and I'm surprised none of you have been able to put it into words. So I'm a gonna do it.
I had a razor once, a piece of Pakistani crap thankfully, that I made the mistake of giving to a knife sharpener to hone for me. Even I could tell that it was a warped blade, visibly bowed out on both the heel and toe. So this fellow sharpened the hell out of it on a flat stone, and as one might expect, ended up with a GIANT wide bevel on both ends and a tiny little bevel in the middle. The blade was flat now, to be sure, but at what cost!
IanS made an incorrect assumption before even starting to hone his razor, one that I myself made right here:
Why didn't any of you guys call me on this?!?
IanS, if you're listening, here's what happened to your razor. The spine was straight. It came straight from the factory. The edge STARTED out life straight, but over time became warped. Your mistake was thinking that your job in honing was to make the bevelled edge flat again, and parallel to the spine. In doing so, you were thinking like a knife sharpener instead of a razor honer. A razor honer, having noted that initial passes on the fine hone did not remove the blueing uniformly, would have thought to himself: "crap, this razor is bowed, so I'll have to be extra-special-careful not to bugger up one end of the edge while I'm sharpening the other."
If you watch the videos, here's what the great honers are doing:
1. They're making the width of the bevel the same all along the razor's edge.
2. They're making the width of the bevel the same on the front and the back of the razor
3. They're making sure the edge cuts hairs at all points along the edge.
At no point do these three statements require the edge to be FLAT. It could be wavy, bowed, or wigglywoggly, the point is they move the razor in such a way that the edge is uniformly sharp at all points, looks the same front to back, and has the narrowest bevel possible to save as much steel as they can. THAT's the part, I'm wagering, that takes skill. Any fool can set a razor flat on his hone and grind it back and forth until it's flat, using the spine as the guide, but I'm guessing you'll frequently end up with ugly bevels because these things are OLD and not all as "straight" as we'd like to think they are.
Or... maybe I'm wrong. What the hell do I know?
Now that that's out of the way... back to... Honing Day 3!!!!
Since my Emerald Wapienica is out of commission for the moment, I'm going to move on to my newest toy, which just arrived in the mail from eBay this morning: the legendary Dubl Duck Wonderedge!
OK, step 1, make sure the razor doesn't shave arm hair. It doesn't, but just to make the naysayers happy, I'm going to run it along this bottle of Hendrick's anyways.
Oh crap, he said the BOTTOM of the bottle. Alright, another run.
OK, done. Doesn't shave a darn thing.
Step 2, raise slurry on coticule. How's this look, Bart?
Oh, I'm thinking not milky enough. Let's give it another splash of water and raise some more. (done)
Alright magic garnets, let's kick some ass!
Step 3: 30 half-strokes in each direction, with a finger resting on the middle of the blade. I'm going to hold it in my hand so I can be cool. Round 1:
Pic by Mrs. Olafurson! Thanks, beautiful!
Crap, I honed all my slurry off the edge.
Let's try that again... more to follow...
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12-05-2009, 04:58 AM #50
I'll be damned, it removed steel!
Rinse it off, arm hair check. And.... fail.
Round 2: arm hair check, fail. Maybe I shouldn't rinse the slurry off the blade before checking the arm hair check.
Round 3 (slurry getting dry, added water and re-slurried): fail.
Round 4: (goddamn, this slurry stuff dries out quick): fail. Getting slurry on my computer keyboard.
Round 5: fail.
Round 6: (goddamn it seriously, how do you NOT get this stuff everywhere?) fail.
Round 7: fail.
Round 8: fail. This stuff dries out annoyingly quickly. A little sprinkle of water, right?
Round 9: fail.
Round 10.... OK, if I try hard enough, and leave it at a severe angle, it might think about taking a hair or two off.
Round 11: dammit, not shaving hair again.
Round 12: OK, it's thinking about shaving hair again, so I'll stop here. Bart said "as soon as razor starts shaving arm hair" so I'm gonna stop.
Step 4: Fresh thin slurry, 30 light strokes. Well, 30 light newbie strokes that is.
Step 5: Electrical tape ON! Yes, it's white, and yes, I'm cooler than you.
Add clear water, watery slurry, 30 x-strokes. Done.
Step 6: Rinse coticule, sprinkle on clear water, 50 x-strokes. Done. Dry razor.
Step 7: 60 laps linen, 60 laps leather. Done.
RESULT: Passes thumb pad test along the heel 1/3, and the toe 1/5, but not in the middle. Pretty much fails arm hair test again. WTF?
And now.... the SOTD pic!
The soap? Fitjar Fjellheim, courtesy of DPflaumer. Thanks, dude! Christmassy!
Underneath the Wonderedge at the bottom of the photo... the Pistachio Friodur for backup.
THE SHAVE: Worthless. I tossed the Wonderedge almost immediately, and finished with the Pistachio Friodur - a lovely shave!!
I failed to properly hone the Wonderedge with the coticule. Obviously I'm not stupid enough to blame the stone for this failure, but at least I tried.
I will try again next time, now that I have a "junk" razor to play with.Last edited by IndianapolisVet; 12-05-2009 at 05:23 AM.