Thread: Finishing with slurry on Japanese naturals

If your razor is already sharp, just try honing on your stone with a light slurry until it gets kind of pasty and dry. So basically just hone on that same slurry without dilution until it is dry. But you will need to experiment a bit to see what works best with your stone.

Thanks for the tips, everyone. I'll try starting off with a lighter slurry and testing the razor out earlier in the process. I'll probably do that today, so I'll update the thread after that.

So I tried some of the things people had mentioned.

I raised a light slurry on my Iwasaki choice stone and tried to hone a razor that used to shave (but not very well) but stopped shaving after I tried the methods I described in the OP. There's a confusing sentence. The razor shaved not well. Then I tried the methods I mentioned in the OP. It stopped shaving. That brings us to today. I did circles up and down 8-10 times. Then 20 x strokes. Still not great. So another 5 or so up and downs of circles and 15 x strokes. Still nothing really. I tried a light Meijiro slurry and did 4 up and downs of circles and 15 strokes then moved back to what I was doing before. Eventually gave up, because I came up with another idea.

I decided to try an edge that was shaving and was just barely in need of a touch up with the new lighter slurry method. Did 7 up and downs of circles and 20 x strokes. The edge stopped passing the dry shave test like it used to before. Did 15 more x strokes. Still nothing. Did another 20 x strokes but this time on my Maruka that had some old, light slurry on it (that I had worked a lot so I figured it would be broken down) and again nothing.

So my question is, what type of edges are you guys taking to these stones? I knew Stuart said after Naniwa 12 or Shapton 16, but I was under the impression that I could use these stones with slurry in place of something that is so high grit. Like start with a slurry that'll do the job of 8k touch up and have it break down to a super fine polish. And I still really doubt it's the stones' fault. I had Sham look at one once and he said it was above 35k in fineness and even that stone does the exact same thing to my edges.

EDIT: I may have done too many circles. Since 8 up and downs is more like 100 or above circles. Let me try it with fewer circles and post about that.

As for the fastness of my stones. I'm not very good at telling how fast a stone is, because I haven't tried all that many stones. I just check the edge along the way. I can say that the slurry on these stones gets grayish a little faster than the slurry on my coticule.

With my natural stones, excluding the Chinese 12K, I normally will do 10-15 X strokes with water only following the 8K stone. If the razor is not there, I will usually do an additional 5 strokes up to a couple times and see if that has dialed it in. If not, I go back to the 8K and then back to the Natural. More times than not, I do not have to go back to the 8K.

Have fun,

Lynn

I would advise start lower than 100 circles, 20 each way and 10 x -strokes, if its not enough do another 20/10. typically you can see the slurry color change that means you are getting there. when I see change in color I start diluting for 10 circles each way dilute again and so forth until I end up with 10 x strokes with water only. All the numbers I mentioned can vary for the particular stone.
I have used 4 different Iwasaki Choice stones and all of them have been great finishers.

Do you have any "Known" stones like a Shapton, Naniwa, or Norton??????

This is always a problem when working with naturals because they are all, well "natural" and therefore unknowns...

Myself I always come off a Norton 8k when using Natural finishers, not bragging but I am really comfortable using that stone, and can get some really good edges from it, but most people come off of at least that sharp an edge,, Basically the edge should be at a shave ready state before you move to a finisher...

That is just my way of doing it, and from what I read, many more people do it that way too...

On my Nakayama I do a light slurry for 10 laps dilute and 10 more then rinse then I start doing very light very perfect X strokes and let the stone go to damp (I have stopped saying dry )

But I can without a doubt shave that edge before it ever gets to a finisher, any finisher, not just the Nakayama..

Originally Posted by heirkb

So I tried some of the things people had mentioned.

I raised a light slurry on my Iwasaki choice stone and tried to hone a razor that used to shave (but not very well) but stopped shaving after I tried the methods I described in the OP. There's a confusing sentence. The razor shaved not well. Then I tried the methods I mentioned in the OP. It stopped shaving. That brings us to today. I did circles up and down 8-10 times. Then 20 x strokes. Still not great. So another 5 or so up and downs of circles and 15 x strokes. Still nothing really. I tried a light Meijiro slurry and did 4 up and downs of circles and 15 strokes then moved back to what I was doing before. Eventually gave up, because I came up with another idea.

I felt the edge on this razor again and decided to give it a test shave, because it actually felt comparable to some of my other razors that were shaving ok. The shave went fairly well without any painful tugging. I could feel the hairs being cut, but it wasn't a painful sensation so the edge was around 8.5/10 for me. 10/10 is when shaving feels like nothing, as though the razor is wiping hairs off my face.

How thick is your slurry? Is it like 2% milk or coffee creamer? Or is it thinner than that?

The reason I ask is I read a very interesting post on B&B yesterday--basically said that for the slurry to break down, it needs to be at a certain thickness; otherwise the particles don't bump into each other enough to break down.

Another thing: I would not do any HHT until after stropping. Slurry can cling to the very edge & make it feel artificially dull--a good fabric stropping removes this. When I first got my Kiita & tried slurry, I mistakenly thought I had dulled the razor from thick slurry--all it needed was a stropping to clean it off! As a result, I used much thinner slurry & got good-but-not great (slightly harsh & not really much sharper than anything else) edges.

After reading that thread, I made thicker slurry & did a test shave--just about the smoothest edge I've ever made & bloody sharp to boot! Very fine feeling w/o any hint of harshness! I would say give Jim's method a try exactly as he outlines it & don't be afraid of thick slurry! What works on other people's stones (dilutions, etc.) will not necessarily work on yours. But then, what else is new in the world of naturals? Keep experimenting!

Ehsan-I hear your frustration. I felt something very similar when I first started this path. So here's the not-necessarily-honing-specific advice my barber gave me, which helped me out immensely.

1. Just do one thing. Choose one hone, one slurry stone, one razor, and work on that. If you're jumping form hone to hone, razor to razor, your variable just get way too jumbled and it's hard to control your results.

2. Relax. When you start to get frustrated with your honing, it comes out in your body. Your razor control can get bad, your strokes can become uneven and the results just aren't there.

3. Hone happy. If you're not happy, you're probably thinking about something else and not paying attention to what you're doing.

Finally, specific hone advice. When raising your slurry, time>pressure. It can take a while to raise a good slurry with your tomonagura. Don't use pressure to speed it up, just use the time. Pressure can cause not only clumpy, bad slurry but can muck up the surface of your hone.

And finally, the kiita I sent you is well suited to slurry honing, just make sure you don't use much pressure in honing, because it has a tendency to release fresh particles and that can dampen your final polish.

New that I am to all this I hope this not out of line. When I first got my J-Nats I would hone like I always did and just use the Natural as the final polisher basically, just come off a 30K Shapton then jump on the Natural, with slurry, using an extremely light touch. The next time I used the Natural after the 16K Shapton then went to the slurry. I went with what I knew. If the J-Nat you have is supposed to be a finisher use it like a finisher. Only after you have the "feel" of the stone then you can experiment and open up your procedures. I would pick one stone and just work with that and find out what it is capable of. I like a stone off slurry,just water wet, then dry sometimes. Each is a different kind of edge.


Take care,
Richard