Thread: Finishing with slurry on Japanese naturals

Originally Posted by JimR

I'd like to hear more about this. I've never used a diamond plate to raise slurry, but this isn't the first time I've seen remarks like yours. Lots of people say that diamond plate slurry is not the same as the tomonagura. Anyone want to speculate why?

Something to do with particle saturation of the slurry I think. Diamond nagura is like lemonade, while TN tends to be more espresso. A diamond plate quickly saturates the water with sweet particles and never creates mud. If you taste the slurries you'll know the difference, but should be visible to the eye immediately. A thing of beauty~

Try to borrow an atoma 1200g DP, shouldn't be hard there in JP. Anything more coarse and you're defeating the stone. They usually come with one blank side to which you can epoxy a 400g replacement plate later for a real DRLP killer. PM me if you want a pic.

Originally Posted by tracr

Something to do with particle saturation of the slurry I think. Diamond nagura is like lemonade, while TN tends to be more espresso. A diamond plate quickly saturates the water with sweet particles and never creates mud. If you taste the slurries you'll know the difference, but should be visible to the eye immediately. A thing of beauty~

Try to borrow an atoma 1200g DP, shouldn't be hard there in JP. Anything more coarse and you're defeating the stone. They usually come with one blank side to which you can epoxy a 400g replacement plate later for a real DRLP killer. PM me if you want a pic.

the Atoma is great stuff, I was not happy with my DMT and got one of those, works much better IMHO. It can lap anything above 1k too.

Originally Posted by riooso

I have learned since I have started using J-Naturals that sometimes it is just best to take the word of people that have KOOK (Keeper Of Odd Knowledge) concerning such things. I know that it is kinda a B.S. answer but the quality of the edges that I have been obtaining from my Naturals are superior to any high tech. synthetic solutions that I have ever tried, thus far, so I just go with the flow. I have many Asian friends that tell me that I try to be to linear in my approach to many things and these J-Nats prove them right.... how to separate fact from V-Doo? Don't know, but this tip is something relayed to me by a person that has more knowledge about Naturals than I can probably imagine. One thing that a full size plate gives you is the ability to build slurry and at the same time keep the stone lapped which saves time and your stone because you are not washing any of your stone down the drain when you lap it.

Later,
Richard

You do know that the way of honing razors (not plane blades) I'm describing is the way Kousuke Iwasaki described, 50+ years ago? And the way that my barber has been doing it for longer than I've been alive? It's not something I just made up...

Originally Posted by JimR

I'd like to hear more about this.

Sounds like you don't want to hear more and your concepts are pretty well set in mud. Try one, don't try one, but why ask if you've already solidified your view and its origins?

Also, if you think you can't learn anything from the kezouro-kai guys, you're only cheating yourself.

Originally Posted by JimR

You do know that the way of honing razors (not plane blades) I'm describing is the way Kousuke Iwasaki described, 50+ years ago? And the way that my barber has been doing it for longer than I've been alive? It's not something I just made up...

I am absolutely on board with what you have indicated. What you described is what got me into J-Nats to start with....I think that is a good thing? I fail to see what I have written that is counter to what you have indicated in the process that you have described. The Atoma? The process of using Nagura and the final sharpening process using finishing stone slurry are just as you described. When finishing whether one uses slurry to dry, thinning slurry till water, or slurry then water then dry they are all just variations of the original final processes. Each of the above process gives a different edge by slightly tweaking the edge and the bevel polishing processes.

I think that I was directed to use an Atoma on my finisher because, for one thing, I have no other stone that I can use that is as fine as my finishing Asagi stone. I think also that even in Japan they are always looking for better and more efficient ways to tune the edges that they are getting off their obviously fine stones.

There is, of course, the question of tradition and using modern day methods to "pollute" the processes handed down. I can fully understand and appreciate that point of view. Using my Asagi is a very rewarding experience and the feel and smell of the process is like no other that I have experienced in the roughly four decades that I have been using stones to sharpen whatever has been in my hands at the time.

For me, it is all about the edges that I am getting using the processes that you, Jim R, outlined in some of your original posts and.....they are glorious!

Take Care,
Richard

Update: Just for fun, I tried diluting after the original method. The stone still had dried slurry on it, so I just re-wetted it & diluted down to water. Same razor to eliminate other variables.

The edge was noticeably less smooth & seemed to differentiate much less between beard/skin. Gave myself a few (painless) weepers. Still reasonably sharp (definitely not as sharp as yesterday), but struggled doing ATG on my chin (everywhere else was fine). It seemed closer to what I got when I was using too-light slurries; just sharper. Almost a bit like 0.5 um diamond film.

The original method (the Iwasaki Method, really) gave a far nicer edge. Only thing left to try is Jim's method again (superb edges there!), followed by a few strokes on clear water w/o a dilution stage. Very curious, but I'm starting to suspect that the original way will still win out.

Originally Posted by PA23-250

Update: Just for fun, I tried diluting after the original method. The stone still had dried slurry on it, so I just re-wetted it & diluted down to water. Same razor to eliminate other variables.

The edge was noticeably less smooth & seemed to differentiate much less between beard/skin. Gave myself a few (painless) weepers. Still reasonably sharp (definitely not as sharp as yesterday), but struggled doing ATG on my chin (everywhere else was fine). It seemed closer to what I got when I was using too-light slurries; just sharper. Almost a bit like 0.5 um diamond film.

The original method (the Iwasaki Method, really) gave a far nicer edge. Only thing left to try is Jim's method again (superb edges there!), followed by a few strokes on clear water w/o a dilution stage. Very curious, but I'm starting to suspect that the original way will still win out.

A while back, I took a Puma that had a very good edge on it and decided to do a few laps with just water on my Iwasaki stone. These stones are definitely NOT like my Escher, because the edge was much much more harsh after that. I used the method outlined on Jim's site and the razor shaved smoothly again. It's one of the two successes I've had with this method. The rest of my edges haven't been great, but I'll keep trying. No time this weekend probably since I'm in the middle of a move, but I'll find time soon.

Was stranded away from razors for several days, so shaved a 5-day beard w/ the same extra hollow. Did a touchup w/ thick slurry to bring it back to a known state (thickest slurry I've used yet & really let it dry out this time).

Gave an amazing shave--really slathered on the Clubman & not the faintest hint of burn!

Tried 10 light strokes on just plain water, following the Iwasaki method--felt slightly duller & less forgiving. Definitely thick slurry for this stone.

Time to really stir the pot here: I really think anyone with a Nakayama who is up for a bit of fun & experimenting should try this method just once--exactly as JimR outlines it--no deviation whatever. Thick slurry (whole milk consistency) allowed to & break down & become slightly pasty. No dilutions, no finishing on water, no going to paste afterwards, nothing. No changes at all. Strop & shave. Just try this for fun & see how it works.

You may love the edge, you may not. Just do it once as an experiment & see. That's what I did, with no expectations of any kind--I didn't care what the result would be; I just honed.

Originally Posted by PA23-250

Tried 10 light strokes on just plain water, following the Iwasaki method--felt slightly duller & less forgiving. Definitely thick slurry for this stone.

Time to really stir the pot here: I really think anyone with a Nakayama who is up for a bit of fun & experimenting should try this method just once--exactly as JimR outlines it--no deviation whatever. Thick slurry (whole milk consistency) allowed to & break down & become slightly pasty. No dilutions, no finishing on water, no going to paste afterwards, nothing. No changes at all. Strop & shave. Just try this for fun & see how it works.

You may love the edge, you may not. Just do it once as an experiment & see. That's what I did, with no expectations of any kind--I didn't care what the result would be; I just honed.

In my experience the method works for slow stones, but not good for fast stones. How you are going to finish also depends on what stone you are coming from, 12k SS edge is almost there and needs very little to make it buttery smooth , at least in my experience.