Thread: Bevel with a blue Belgian?

Originally Posted by HNSB

If I have time I might give it a shot just to see.

It's pretty interesting, considering that "common knowledge" a year ago was that a BBW without slurry was useless, and with slurry it was about a 4k. Somewhere along the line it became that it's about a 4k with just water and cuts faster with slurry. Now, it seems, that the stone is about 4k with slurry and a finisher with just water.
Also interesting is that the "common knowledge" used to be that BBWs were very consistent from one stone to another. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore either.
I never really played with one a whole lot, but I think the lesson I learned here is don't believe everything you read. At this point I have no idea what a BBW is or isn't capable of.

The experiment pretty much follows these general steps:

Dull razor
Raise milky slurry on BBW and make back and forth strokes on the hone until you can shave arm hair, I did 50 back and forth and then flipped the razor and repeated.

Then dilute the slurry so it is half as thick and do 50 more half strokes

put a layer of tape on the razor after the previous steps.

do 20 or so x strokes on the hone with the tape on the razor, slurry is half as thick as step 1.

Rinse the stone and the razor.

Wet the stone and rub the slurry stone back and forth on it ONCE so there is hardly a visible slurry on the stone but enough to impact the honing.

make 50 back honing strokes as if you are stropping very evenly on the hone.

Done.

*If anyone doesn't feel the need to read through the whole PDF file they just try what I explained above and see what happens.

Gentlemen;

I have deleted the useless posts out of this thread, Please continue you discussion on actual honing using the BBW and slurry...

If it deteriorates into a mêlée again it won't be a good thing...

FYI

All Natural stones are different, this is why people tend to argue passionately about them.. You need to realize that you are defending YOUR stone the other guys stone might not do what YOUR stone is doing...

I always relate this to the 4 CH12k's I bought, since no one is passionately defending those stones... 4 stones, 4 different honing surfaces, 4 different feels while honing, 4 different edges...
Now if you can't wrap your head around that fact perhaps you shouldn't be posting your experience here at SRP ..


Thank you the Mod Squad

Disburden, thanks for the summary. Right away, I can tell you it's not a method I'll ever try, because I would never take a razor that is shave ready and dull it. Maybe that's just my own weirdness, but there it is.

Looking at the method itself, I have to say, it looks to me like it's simply the standard practice for one stone honing. It provides numbers, which is well and good, but I don't see much use to them. We all know that natural stones vary with respect to their cutting properties, and we all know that different people honing on the exact same stones will have to vary their numbers because of the differences between their strokes. What I mean by all that is that the amount of slurry, the number of strokes between dilutions, and the amount you dilute by are GUIDES as opposed to ABSOLUTES. It is the basis of a method that one will have to tinker with.

As such, there is really nothing new at all in that method. It is exactly the same type of general usage that is applied to coticules or jnats with various slurries or the one stone honing demos that Glen and Lynn recently posted. Heck, I posted a heads up test between the BBW and the DT maybe a year or so ago (I set the bevels on a 1k cause I was using Ebay quarter hollows) when I found that the examples I had shaved about the same, which was very nicely - no pulling, no tugging, very smooth on the face and left my face very smooth. (If you care, check it http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...bbw-vs-dt.html My methods are based on how I was honing at the time, but, IMO, the method doesn't really matter anyway.)

So again, I have to say, I'm not seeing anything new in the method part, because anyone who wants to do this with THEIR BBW or whatever other hone is going to have to use the method in the report as a guide and then play with it for THEIR hone.

As far as what the reports mean... Well, I've shaved off my BBW and I've shaved off my coti. I've shaved of both of them several times. There are a lot of hones my face cannot tell the difference between, but I can tell the difference between my BBW and my coti - my coti gives me a better shave. Actually, that gives me a very good idea...

Anyway, my point is I could not care less that a recent test conducted by I'm not exactly sure who with however few BBW's and Coti's showed that all the hones left edges that shave the same. It's not because I take any issue with the people who did the test or the methods they used or anything else about the test - it's because my own personal results with my own personal stones are different.

Originally Posted by 111Nathaniel

Cant say if what i have is fast or slow stone, because i don't have enough experience to have a reference. with time as you guys said i'll learn what my stones can do. i'm not into restoration for the time being, so my razors are in good condition, but i did want some advice as to if i needed lower grit stones like a 1000k to maintain my razor? (this is why i asked if you could set a bevel) from what i've read from your replies the coti and bbw have very similar ability or application? and theres not much difference between them at least thats the impression i get? could someone clarify...

Thanks again for all your feed back.

Hi Nathaniel,

If your razors are in shaving condition, the bevel is set. You know this since they are cutting hair (along the whole length of the blade).

Maintenance, barring mishaps, should not require a 1000k stone. Choose your honing tools, dull or not before honing, makes little difference. Since you already have a coticule/BBW combo, listen to people who use them regularly or exclusively.

Dulling is merely a marker to assure one that they know where they are in a honing act. It takes the guess-work out of it. If you do not wish to do this, start your touch up half way through the type of procedure being discussed. That is to say, start at the "half slurry" stage and through to finish. No reason to do half strokes other than speed, and tape is not needed. Though if you are relatively new to honing, tape will get you there almost guaranteed.

You may find the stropping strokes to your liking, you may not.

Your stone is up to the job. The coticule and BBW will both perform if you learn how to use them, with vanishingly small differences. I am currently getting the smoothest shaves I have ever had from a piece of BBW (adjacent to a coticule layer) picked up off of the ground and made into a hone. It doesn't get more random than that.

regards,
Torolf

I have been out of town for a few days. It looks like I missed some fun

Ok, as someone who participated in the tests, I think I may have something of interest to say here.

First, the report mentions the shortcomings of the test as they are. It is a small sample, it was with an "inferior" brand of razor, and trying to account for the honing and preferences of only 8 guys and trying to make an broad application is tough.

However, the fact that it was a blind shave test, was revealing because all of the people who tested it are people who prefer the coticule edge/honing method. So, the fact that they couldn't see an appreciable difference in them is significant.

For me, I could tell which was which. In fact, I preferred the two BBW edges to the Coticule edge. The guy right after me loved the one coticule edge and didn't care for the BBW edges. Most guys were very surprised by the result.

At work, I deal with a guy who thinks that a certain technique doesn't work and is problematic because he had 3 poor outcomes trying to do that technique. However, his colleagues around the world are doing great things with it, and their evidence is supported by prospective double-blind studies. This isn't enough to sway his opinion because he trusts his own anecdotal experience demonstrates that the technique isn't good instead of thinking he needs to work on mastering it...

The report doesn't make any claims really that I'm aware of, but it does call for others to research it more to see if it could be replicated because it was such a small sample size... If you're not interested in doing that, I personally don't care. I'll be frank and admit that I have not done very much with it after the experiment. It was a fun project, though.

Paul,

What were the key points that made you like the blue edges over the coticule edges? Were they crisper per say, mellower,etc? From the test I've done, I didn't shave yet, the hairs just pop off my arm like crazy after the back honing on the blue with tape and light light slurry.

Originally Posted by Disburden

Paul,

What were the key points that made you like the blue edges over the coticule edges? Were they crisper per say, mellower,etc? From the test I've done, I didn't shave yet, the hairs just pop off my arm like crazy after the back honing on the blue with tape and light light slurry.

They shaved easier (sharper), and they were totally smooth and forgiving. Just like I like. If we were "ranking" them, the highest rated was the BBW side of the combination stone, BBW, followed by the Coticule ranking last. That isn't the focus of the study, at all. But there is a sentiment shared by some that BBW is completely incapable of finishing a razor to the standards that we're accustomed to. We found that ours could in this study.

Like I said, though, the guy after me had the opposite reaction. We were the only two to accurately guess the honing order.

I will test my other BBW to see how they respond, but I'm not going to be in a big hurry to because I'm doing a lot of work and travel.

Originally Posted by Disburden

I didn't mean to post the link to the experiment to cause more friction between members of different forums. The reason I posted this was so maybe some of us here would read it and try it as something new and create a discussion based on the relevant OP. Is anyone here actually going to try this method as written? That's what I was basically asking when I made my post because I know I like experimenting with my stones and thought it would be good fun to try it out.

Id like to hear the experiences with this particular method, thanks!

Disburden,

I have honed 2 razors using this method and can say it works. My Coticule is a combo stone about 8 x 3. The result was great and it produced a very nice shave. I have not touched up either of the 2 razors and the edges are holding up similarly to those honed on the yellow.

Best Regards,
Lu

Hello,

It's been a while, thought i should follow up with my own results. Been getting some great shaves off my stones. Supper smooth, then only reason i dont get one sometimes is because i'm experimenting with my pre-shave process and i dont know my face well yet so i miss some spots.

I set the bevel with a heavy slurry on the Blue, (may take a while but i believe i have a faster blue than i expected, in fact i didn't realize it but i had one finger on the toe to help me guide the razor but the added pressure on the toe took off more steel and i wasn't doing many laps. but i did learn from it and refined my technique) then i work it down it a light slurry. Then i start on the coti. with a light slurry until i finish on just water. I wouldn't be able to tell you how many strokes i do because i'm kinda going on feel and how it looks as i go along.

Typically on just water by 20 strokes the water is starting to grey from the steel. In theory you could get a better edge off the Blue then the coti because of the characteristics of the stone but it would take many many (a lot of) strokes, and it wouldn't make much difference.

Results may very with other stones but i think mine are pretty fast cutters, but in the future i will get a low grit to set bevels, on which is where this thread began. You Can set your bevel with these stones and have fun with them but if you want consistent and less time used i recommend getting another stone.

Thanks for all your help, hope this helps someone too.
Nathaniel.

Originally Posted by cyclelu

Disburden,

I have honed 2 razors using this method and can say it works. My Coticule is a combo stone about 8 x 3. The result was great and it produced a very nice shave. I have not touched up either of the 2 razors and the edges are holding up similarly to those honed on the yellow.

Best Regards,
Lu

a dream of stone, today it's almost impossible to obtain those sizes in new stones . Keep it well