Thread: Some questions I haven't seen answered yet

thanks for the input guys. Let me say, though, that sending my razor off to someone who knows how to hone it won't help teach me how to hone.
That being said, I'm really looking for honing help from someone who understands the issue at hand.

BTW, I shaved about 3 times with the razor before it started pulling. Each time took about 6-10 minutes, no big deal, had a fine shave each time, no cuts, no problem. I don't know why it takes people so long to figure it out, not rocket science. But keeping the blade in shape is stumping me. Is it possible that the "shave ready" edge from dovo needs to be redone?

[QUOTE=daflorc;755588]thanks for the input guys. Let me say, though, that sending my razor off to someone who knows how to hone it won't help teach me how to hone.
That being said, I'm really looking for honing help from someone who understands the issue at hand.

BTW, I shaved about 3 times with the razor before it started pulling. Each time took about 6-10 minutes, no big deal, had a fine shave each time, no cuts, no problem. I don't know why it takes people so long to figure it out, not rocket science. But keeping the blade in shape is stumping me. Is it possible that the "shave ready" edge from dovo needs to be redone?[/QUOTE]


There are about 100000 posts that would agree with you in fact the real problem is that it isn't rocket science ...

The razor was actually never shave ready from Dovo it was sharp but the bevel was not well established so it went bye bye rather fast...

A true shave ready razor has an established bevel and is very easy to touch back up..

I have written volumes on this site and others trying to help people learn the "Art" of honing a straight razor even have a channel on Youtube with Vids showing it and still we get 1000's of questions on it every week...

The only way you get good is to practice, but learning to shave and learning to hone at the same time is most often an exercise in futility...

Needless to say the razor needs a bevel set and to be honed up to a true shave ready edge...

This is the ebay page with the strop info: looks to be an off brand. The black side is leather, rather soft, but thin, and even when I pull it tight there is a bow in the middle of the leather:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2018wt_907


regarding this post: "The razor was actually never shave ready from Dovo it was sharp but the bevel was not well established so it went bye bye rather fast..."

...I suspected that may have been the case. I've read that DOVO's "shave ready" blades are rarely shave-ready from many posts. I was wondering why, after 300-500 passes on the kitayama finishing hone, It doesn't seem to be any sharper than when I started. The hone's not taking off enough metal to reset the bevel. I assumed that since the razor was sharp, a finishing hone was all I needed.

(btw, for interested persons, I bought a 3inch wide hone so I wouldn't have to learn the x-pass, and to simplify the process. I've never rolled the edge, taken the spine off the stone when passing, or otherwise done anything inappropriate to the edge. My passes never had any part of the edge lift off the stone, and I never used any undue pressure on the blade. The stone was always wet with a slurry i made with a slurry stone, included with the kitayama stone)

So, then, my question is this: can I set the bevel with the 4,000 grit belgian blue I ordered(should be here by tuesday), or do I have to go out and really buy a 1,000 grit stone to set the bevel? I don't mind if it takes longer, I just want to know if it can be done, or if there is a reason I don't know about that requires the bevel to be set with a lower-grit stone?



BTW, all you other beginners out there, if you bought a "shave ready" razor that's sharp but not sharp enough to shave, don't try to "touch it up" with a finishing stone as smooth as glass. I liken it to trying to finish-sand a rough piece of timber with a sanding block instead of running it through the surface planer first

The first time I put a hone to a razor was a small 4"-4.5" x 1" thuringian hone and a Dovo razor that was previously honed by Lynn but after a trip to Germany and back for refitting of the scales it needed a bit of a touch up.
I used the instructions on this site, I didn't do more than 15 strokes but I didn't think anything had changed because I didn't feel the edge was doing proper contact with the hone and it seemed it was just floating on top of the water.
I was wrong, the razor was sharp again. Wasn't rocket science at all!

Originally Posted by daflorc

That being said, I'm really looking for honing help from someone who understands the issue at hand.

BTW, I shaved about 3 times with the razor before it started pulling. Each time took about 6-10 minutes, no big deal, had a fine shave each time, no cuts, no problem. I don't know why it takes people so long to figure it out, not rocket science. But keeping the blade in shape is stumping me. Is it possible that the "shave ready" edge from dovo needs to be redone?

I do believe I understand very well the issue at hand - you have no idea what the condition of your edge is, how to fix it, and how long would it take to do so with the hones that you've already bought. Allmost all of your posts are speculation. There's nothing wrong with this - nobody is born already learned, it takes experience. Here's what I can tell you from my experience:

1. I have no idea what the Kitayama does
2. I know that the belgian blue stones vary a fair amount (I've had about 20 of them) but generally are quite slow hones.
3. To remove significant amount of steel with your belgian stone you'll have to use slurry.
4. To get a reasonably sharp edge with that belgian hone you'll need to dilute the slurry.
5. You will have to learn to know when you're done with a particular hone (or in your case slurry thickness) and it's time to move forward.
6. Even a cheap loupe off ebay would be helpful in getting a better idea what's happening with the edge, but it won't be a replacement for some sort of a sharpness evaluation to guide you through the progress.
7. If you have a double bevel a marker can be quite helpful.

See, not even close to rocket science.

[QUOTE=gssixgun;755596]

Originally Posted by daflorc

The razor was actually never shave ready from Dovo it was sharp but the bevel was not well established so it went bye bye rather fast...

I don't get this. daflorc wrote he had 3 good shaves with it. So how is it possible to have good shaves with a bevel that is not established?

Originally Posted by Kees

[QUOTE

I don't get this. daflorc wrote he had 3 good shaves with it. So how is it possible to have good shaves with a bevel that is not established?

Watch the Dovo vid and watch them "Sharpen" the razor they "Set" the bevel using a rotating stone disc without touching the spine to the stone...
Then whip it back and forth about 10 laps on what possibly is a Coticule...

From what I see there, and what I have seen of the "Factory Sharpened" edges that I get in to hone. This is basically a very rounded convex edge that feels sharp much like a knife blade does...This rounds out to no edge very quickly...Unlike a well established bevel, that has a defined ^ point and sides to it... It also is next to impossible to re-touch since the "bevel" was not set on an even plane.... I guess if you wanted to play the multple layers of tape game, and lift the spine you could re-touch the very edge and get it shaving again???? I have never actually tried it but I bet it could work

I hope that makes some sense I wish I could do those cool graphics to show it better

Overall, I'm going to take a pass on this one . . . but,

You can set a bevel with a 4K stone.

I would be curious about what parts of the bevel are getting "shiny" as you say.

You seem pretty frustrated, but I'd say the main problem is that you really don't understand what you are doing or why. You've read about, but reading about it and being qualified to make analytical decisions about it are two different things.

So, in specifically addressing your problem it is physically impossible to cause enough damage on a shaving razor with a strop that can not be fixed with a finishing stone.

So, I think, there is a logic flaw somewhere in understanding.

I think though that convincing you of this would be an uphill battle. One that I'm not willing to climb.

I hope though that in running down this path you've set for yourself of resetting the bevel that you learn quite a bit of new things. You are going to gain a lot of experience with honing. With the first 4K stroke you will run down a path with this razor that will be very intersting and engaging.

Thanks for the input, I've definitely learned more on this thread than from reading dozens of other threads and watching "how to" videos, and the fine fellows here have, not individually but as a group, each offered a part of the answer to my problem.


1. Initially, I was operating under the assumption that Dovo had set a proper bevel, and assumed that my finishing stone could touch it up. Because I'm new, I considered the possibility that my stropping was incorrect.

2. The reason why I couldn't touch up the edge of my blade with a finishing stone on my "shave ready" Dovo from the factory is because Dovo created a weak bevel due to their mediocre sharpening process(watch their video and prove me wrong, they half-ass their sharpening)

3. My stropping, while possibly incorrect, could not fix the poor bevel regardless, and not being a strop expert added to the confusion for my fellow helpers on this thread.


CONCLUSIONS:
1. I need to reset the bevel on a lower grit stone, and it is possible to do so on a belgian blue.

2. Don't assume a "shave ready" dovo just needs "a touch up" with a finishing stone. Go through the whole honing process.


(AFDavis11, the bevel I'm referring to is the 1mm or less edge of the razor that is flat, and grinds against the stone)
btw, this is helpful -"it is physically impossible to cause enough damage on a shaving razor with a strop that can not be fixed with a finishing stone"

Hey thanks for the info on that belgian blue. Use lots of slurry to get max. cutting power, I will do it. And it is true, I can hardly tell the condition of my edge without a microscope. I have a 10x jewelers loupe, but it is next to impossible to see the condition of the edge with it. I can see the bevel, and can tell you that the mirror finish is made up of miniscule, parallel scratches from the kitayama (which, with a slurry, is just another very fine polishing stone–a slow stone, polishes with 50-100 round trips, takes off minimal amounts of steel in the process, buffs to high shine)

All I know about the condition of the blade is that when a hair is held taught on it, it "sings" like a violin. It will cut a hair when a blade is run across it, but It won't pass a hanging hair test.

BTW, this is very helpful, thanks:
"Watch the Dovo vid and watch them "Sharpen" the razor they "Set" the bevel using a rotating stone disc without touching the spine to the stone...
Then whip it back and forth about 10 laps on what possibly is a Coticule...
From what I see there, and what I have seen of the "Factory Sharpened" edges that I get in to hone. This is basically a very rounded convex edge that feels sharp much like a knife blade does...This rounds out to no edge very quickly...Unlike a well established bevel, that has a defined ^ point and sides to it... It also is next to impossible to re-touch since the "bevel" was not set on an even plane..."

Originally Posted by daflorc

Hey thanks for the info on that belgian blue. Use lots of slurry to get max. cutting power, I will do it. And it is true, I can hardly tell the condition of my edge without a microscope. I have a 10x jewelers loupe,
.............

A 10x Loupe can tell a lot when combined with
a magic marker and good light.

Take a red or black magic marker and "paint" the edge
and perhaps the spine.

Lay the razor spine first on a flat as heck fine hone and
give it one stroke lift the edge roll it over the spine
to the second side and give it another one smooth stroke
with no pressure in the other direction. A barber hone
works for this..... so does abrasive film on glass or some
other flat surface (Google for Woodcraft Pinnacle Honing).

You should only see smooth bright steel on the
edge bevel (and the spine). No trace of ink on the
sharp side of the bevel. My guess is that you will
see a thin red or black line that indicates that the
hone is not in contact all the way to the edge. Just
give the marker ink a full five or ten min to dry.

BTW: You can often see the same thing if the razor was honed
with tape. So if you see ink near the edge try one layer of tape
perhaps two and repeat this simple test. Always ask
your honemaster of choice if he or she uses tape so
you can correctly match his tape to maintain the edge.