Thread: Some questions I haven't seen answered yet

This is the ebay page with the strop info: looks to be an off brand. The black side is leather, rather soft, but thin, and even when I pull it tight there is a bow in the middle of the leather:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2018wt_907


regarding this post: "The razor was actually never shave ready from Dovo it was sharp but the bevel was not well established so it went bye bye rather fast..."

...I suspected that may have been the case. I've read that DOVO's "shave ready" blades are rarely shave-ready from many posts. I was wondering why, after 300-500 passes on the kitayama finishing hone, It doesn't seem to be any sharper than when I started. The hone's not taking off enough metal to reset the bevel. I assumed that since the razor was sharp, a finishing hone was all I needed.

(btw, for interested persons, I bought a 3inch wide hone so I wouldn't have to learn the x-pass, and to simplify the process. I've never rolled the edge, taken the spine off the stone when passing, or otherwise done anything inappropriate to the edge. My passes never had any part of the edge lift off the stone, and I never used any undue pressure on the blade. The stone was always wet with a slurry i made with a slurry stone, included with the kitayama stone)

So, then, my question is this: can I set the bevel with the 4,000 grit belgian blue I ordered(should be here by tuesday), or do I have to go out and really buy a 1,000 grit stone to set the bevel? I don't mind if it takes longer, I just want to know if it can be done, or if there is a reason I don't know about that requires the bevel to be set with a lower-grit stone?



BTW, all you other beginners out there, if you bought a "shave ready" razor that's sharp but not sharp enough to shave, don't try to "touch it up" with a finishing stone as smooth as glass. I liken it to trying to finish-sand a rough piece of timber with a sanding block instead of running it through the surface planer first

[QUOTE=gssixgun;755596]

Originally Posted by daflorc

The razor was actually never shave ready from Dovo it was sharp but the bevel was not well established so it went bye bye rather fast...

I don't get this. daflorc wrote he had 3 good shaves with it. So how is it possible to have good shaves with a bevel that is not established?

Originally Posted by Kees

[QUOTE

I don't get this. daflorc wrote he had 3 good shaves with it. So how is it possible to have good shaves with a bevel that is not established?

Watch the Dovo vid and watch them "Sharpen" the razor they "Set" the bevel using a rotating stone disc without touching the spine to the stone...
Then whip it back and forth about 10 laps on what possibly is a Coticule...

From what I see there, and what I have seen of the "Factory Sharpened" edges that I get in to hone. This is basically a very rounded convex edge that feels sharp much like a knife blade does...This rounds out to no edge very quickly...Unlike a well established bevel, that has a defined ^ point and sides to it... It also is next to impossible to re-touch since the "bevel" was not set on an even plane.... I guess if you wanted to play the multple layers of tape game, and lift the spine you could re-touch the very edge and get it shaving again???? I have never actually tried it but I bet it could work

I hope that makes some sense I wish I could do those cool graphics to show it better

Hey thanks for the info on that belgian blue. Use lots of slurry to get max. cutting power, I will do it. And it is true, I can hardly tell the condition of my edge without a microscope. I have a 10x jewelers loupe, but it is next to impossible to see the condition of the edge with it. I can see the bevel, and can tell you that the mirror finish is made up of miniscule, parallel scratches from the kitayama (which, with a slurry, is just another very fine polishing stone–a slow stone, polishes with 50-100 round trips, takes off minimal amounts of steel in the process, buffs to high shine)

All I know about the condition of the blade is that when a hair is held taught on it, it "sings" like a violin. It will cut a hair when a blade is run across it, but It won't pass a hanging hair test.

BTW, this is very helpful, thanks:
"Watch the Dovo vid and watch them "Sharpen" the razor they "Set" the bevel using a rotating stone disc without touching the spine to the stone...
Then whip it back and forth about 10 laps on what possibly is a Coticule...
From what I see there, and what I have seen of the "Factory Sharpened" edges that I get in to hone. This is basically a very rounded convex edge that feels sharp much like a knife blade does...This rounds out to no edge very quickly...Unlike a well established bevel, that has a defined ^ point and sides to it... It also is next to impossible to re-touch since the "bevel" was not set on an even plane..."

Overall, I'm going to take a pass on this one . . . but,

You can set a bevel with a 4K stone.

I would be curious about what parts of the bevel are getting "shiny" as you say.

You seem pretty frustrated, but I'd say the main problem is that you really don't understand what you are doing or why. You've read about, but reading about it and being qualified to make analytical decisions about it are two different things.

So, in specifically addressing your problem it is physically impossible to cause enough damage on a shaving razor with a strop that can not be fixed with a finishing stone.

So, I think, there is a logic flaw somewhere in understanding.

I think though that convincing you of this would be an uphill battle. One that I'm not willing to climb.

I hope though that in running down this path you've set for yourself of resetting the bevel that you learn quite a bit of new things. You are going to gain a lot of experience with honing. With the first 4K stroke you will run down a path with this razor that will be very intersting and engaging.

Thanks for the input, I've definitely learned more on this thread than from reading dozens of other threads and watching "how to" videos, and the fine fellows here have, not individually but as a group, each offered a part of the answer to my problem.


1. Initially, I was operating under the assumption that Dovo had set a proper bevel, and assumed that my finishing stone could touch it up. Because I'm new, I considered the possibility that my stropping was incorrect.

2. The reason why I couldn't touch up the edge of my blade with a finishing stone on my "shave ready" Dovo from the factory is because Dovo created a weak bevel due to their mediocre sharpening process(watch their video and prove me wrong, they half-ass their sharpening)

3. My stropping, while possibly incorrect, could not fix the poor bevel regardless, and not being a strop expert added to the confusion for my fellow helpers on this thread.


CONCLUSIONS:
1. I need to reset the bevel on a lower grit stone, and it is possible to do so on a belgian blue.

2. Don't assume a "shave ready" dovo just needs "a touch up" with a finishing stone. Go through the whole honing process.


(AFDavis11, the bevel I'm referring to is the 1mm or less edge of the razor that is flat, and grinds against the stone)
btw, this is helpful -"it is physically impossible to cause enough damage on a shaving razor with a strop that can not be fixed with a finishing stone"

Originally Posted by daflorc

Hey thanks for the info on that belgian blue. Use lots of slurry to get max. cutting power, I will do it. And it is true, I can hardly tell the condition of my edge without a microscope. I have a 10x jewelers loupe,
.............

A 10x Loupe can tell a lot when combined with
a magic marker and good light.

Take a red or black magic marker and "paint" the edge
and perhaps the spine.

Lay the razor spine first on a flat as heck fine hone and
give it one stroke lift the edge roll it over the spine
to the second side and give it another one smooth stroke
with no pressure in the other direction. A barber hone
works for this..... so does abrasive film on glass or some
other flat surface (Google for Woodcraft Pinnacle Honing).

You should only see smooth bright steel on the
edge bevel (and the spine). No trace of ink on the
sharp side of the bevel. My guess is that you will
see a thin red or black line that indicates that the
hone is not in contact all the way to the edge. Just
give the marker ink a full five or ten min to dry.

BTW: You can often see the same thing if the razor was honed
with tape. So if you see ink near the edge try one layer of tape
perhaps two and repeat this simple test. Always ask
your honemaster of choice if he or she uses tape so
you can correctly match his tape to maintain the edge.

Get yourself a good but cheap strop with a canvas side.

I started honing in ernest with a BBW. You can get a perfectly shaveable edge off of it, but it will take you a week or so of experimenting.
Visit coticule.be for more info on Belgian homes.

Firstly, I suggest you pick up an unremarkable vintage razor on eBay for ~$15. Learning to use Belgian hones can take practice, which will put hone wear on your nice dovo.
You can definitely get a dovo factory edge to shave ready on a BBW, I've done it. I can't speak specifically about your stone, or what you've done to it since so the procedure I'm going to give you will be assuming that the edge is toast. Again, I advise you wait until you have a razor to learn on before trying this.

BBW:

Note: all is assuming you have a slurry stone. Take your time, and don't get careless with movements. You can slip and chip your razor pretty easily. It is a long process at first, and later honing sessions probably won't require as much work. This is the best I can do without getting too technical or subjective.

1) Bevel "setting"
You're not going to get as precise a bevel off a BBW as you would a 1k stone. That being said, you can get a serviceable edge.
Start with a paste like slurry. When creating slurry, start with very little water, so that you don't create more slurry than necessary. It is only the amount directly under the edge that does the work, any more is Easters and hinders dilution.

-Sets of 40 halfstrokes per side. Only add water to maintain slurry thickness, try not to dilute.
Test: after 4 sets, wipe the blade and strop the edge clean on your forearm (carefully), or jeans. Then try the "arm hair test" (AHT).

--> if you can cut arm hairs cleanly then proceed to next step
--> if you can not, do 1 more set of 50 halfstrokes and check again
=> repeate until it passes AHT

2) Refinement
this step assumes you are passing the AHT follow closely and you should get this step right.

Dilute the paste like slurry to about 50% thickness of before. If you end up with too much let some run off the stone as you hone.

-sets of 40 halfstrokes per side
-4 sets.
Wipe blade, clean edge on forearm and HHT with a thick hair. You should be getting a HHT2 "violin" or better. If not, whatever move on to the next step anyway.

3) further refinement
Dilute slurry to 50% of previous step.

- x-strokes
-100-120 x-strokes with very light pressure. Take this step slow and try not to slip up and scrape the edge on the edges of the stone.

Test: (optional) HHT. Should be at a HHT3 or better. If not more x-strokes. It's important to clean the edge or you're not going toget a good test result.

4) Finishing
Rinse the blade and stone thoroughly.

Slurry: Misty - 1-3 swipes of the slurry stone. You should barely see any slurry.

-100 x-strokes with as little pressure as possible. The BBW is forgiving, so no need to be anal about pressure.

Test: HHT. Should be a solid HHT3, if not a 4.

5) Stropping
If you have a confident Stropping technique, do 60 canvas then 60 leather. As little pressure as possible, and take it slow. You can easily kill all the work you've done to get to this point.







This is the procedure that I have come up with after much experimenting, as well as with the help of dr. Ralfson, Bart, and many others. I'm fairly confident that you will have a shave ready edge on your razor the quickest if you follow it, and you will only improve with time.

Hopefully I'm not being redundant in this post, I'm typing all this up on my phone and haven't read every post in this thread yet.

Hey, that magic marker thing sounds like a good idea to better see the edge under a loupe.

And thanks, dnullify, for your insight, and writing all that on your phone–wow!

JMO again, if you are intent on learning to strop, shave, and hone all at once go back as far as you can into the honing section and read as many old posts on honing as you can. Then find one of the people from the old posts that you find most helpful to you and that is still here and read everything they ever posted. If you have questions ask that one knowledgeable person in a PM if they cant answer your question they will know someone who can. There are so many different techniques to get a razor to shaving sharp and comfortable that by reading everything from everyone sometimes at least for me became overwhelming because I tried a little of everything. Once I followed the posts of one person and asked that person questions I had, things started to fall into place. Ask 10 people how to get a razor to shave ready and after being told the setting the bevel is the key, you will have 10 different ways to get to shave ready i.e. which hone, natural, synthetic, pyramid, circles, heavy pressure, or slurry. Limit the variables and your headaches