Thread: The Famous/Infamous Norton 4/8 "JaNorton 2012"

Ok, first shave of the experimenting done. Here are the details:

Razor : 7/8" W&B chopper

Method :

To start with a fresh edge, I hit the N4k without slurry. I did about 40x circles on each side with just a little pressure.

I then did 10-15 laps in the sweeping X-pattern like Glen demonstrated since there is a little bit of a smile to this blade, again with just a little pressure.

I checked the edge and it popped hairs fine all along the edge, so I rinsed the N4k, and did about 15 sweeping X-strokes again, this time with only the weight of the blade, no pressure.

I then went to the N8k with just water. Using only the weight of the blade, I did 10-15 sweeping X-strokes again, then rinsed the hone, and did about 10 more.

I then stropped about 40-50x on my homemade denim cloth strop, followed by 40x on my homemade cowhide leather strop.

Shave : I did my usual 2 pass shave, following the same prep procedures I always do. The shave was comfortable, and ended up fairly smooth, but not as smooth as the shaves I was getting off a coticule. Next shave I will try something a little different on the hones and see if I can't get it to shave a little better.

On a side note, Glen, are we supposed to drop back down to the 4k when trying different techniques? Or is it enough to just try the new techniques on the 8k, strop and shave?

I haven't honed my two blades yet, but I did my second "reference" shave today, using the TI Le Canadien 6/8" which I had previously honed on the Nortons with a 1k bevel then a 4k/8k pyramid progression and finishing on the 8k. The shave was smooth and comfortable, so that was pleasant. Now I have a bit of a reference point with both blades that I'm using for JaNorton, so tomorrow or the next day one or both of them will go on the 4k/8k for a new edge.

If you are looking for some more detail, I write up my shaves here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...tml#post897880

It seems to me that "at this point in time" there's a bunch of different methods; but circles and x strokes prevail. Just wondering what people's (well, the expert's) opinions are on just straight up and back; with the blade angled so it all fits on the width of the hone? (I realise some blades won't really fit well). I find circles difficult (though I did do quite a few this time). Also, for me, using two hands is preferable to one. With one I tend to rock the blade; and it's not all in contact with the hone all the time. Not really all that enamoured with X strokes either, just straight up and back for me.

The idea for this thread is such a cool idea, we're all going to learn so much in a short time, I love learning new stuff!

I remember a post here by someone a while ago, speaking of the thrills of being a 'newbie', with so much to investigate and learn, I absolutely "get" that. That's why I keep changing obsessions so often, I like to be a sponge, and "do" a select number of things to the nth degree... Thanks a LOT to Glen for this thread, it's going to bump up the learning curve a whole lot.

[EDIT] I realise an x stroke is important for a blade with a smile :-)

I'm of the opinion that circles will become a much easier stroke than you currently find them to be. One thing to help balance the razor in your hand to avoid the tilting of the blade is to use your pinky to hold up the scales. This will allow you to control the razor really well when you get the hang of it, and the blade rocking will be fixed.

Regarding the back and forth stroke, I find it completely worthless. Unless you have a mathematically flat stone and a razor with perfect geometry, a straight back and forth stroke will leave part of the razor behind at minimum and completely unhoned at worst. An X stroke will make up for any slight imperfections in the hone's surface, and it will ensure that your entire bevel gets worked (same is true for circles).

Originally Posted by richmondesi

I'm of the opinion that circles will become a much easier stroke than you currently find them to be. One thing to help balance the razor in your hand to avoid the tilting of the blade is to use your pinky to hold up the scales. This will allow you to control the razor really well when you get the hang of it, and the blade rocking will be fixed.

Regarding the back and forth stroke, I find it completely worthless. Unless you have a mathematically flat stone and a razor with perfect geometry, a straight back and forth stroke will leave part of the razor behind at minimum and completely unhoned at worst. An X stroke will make up for any slight imperfections in the hone's surface, and it will ensure that your entire bevel gets worked (same is true for circles).

Oh, well, that actually makes perfect sense (a little unfortunately, I was hoping for a "yeah, do that! It's a really cool method!"). :-)
Sometime you've just got to learn the right way, It's a bit like shooting, there's a method. Really my stroke wasn't 100% up and back, I came a little to the side (a CM?) up and back. I'll have to practise the circles and x strokes more though, as your comments are completely logical :-)

I think that your opinion is good. The problem that I have with the circle stroke is that I hold it flat. LOL At least for me! The "me" part is what I have issues with. I play with edges that are well used. The previous owners/honers imperfections are not the same as mine. The X stroke I am finding is the best for me to imitate what has gone on before.

After one shave with My Bengall I decided to rehone it tonight. :-] My hone is about 1/2 inch shorter. Maybe a little more with the saw kerf. I like using the stone itself for the slurry stone. Just as quick if not quicker and less waste of slurry. I can see that the smaller stone might influence the flatness, but that is yet to be determined to what degree and if it is worth worrying about.

I played around with some Z strokes to try to understand the different scratch patterns. I wish I had some big revelation but no.

I know it is sharp but i will have to wait until morning to give it a test run.

Having fun!

tim

Originally Posted by richmondesi

I'm of the opinion that circles will become a much easier stroke than you currently find them to be. One thing to help balance the razor in your hand to avoid the tilting of the blade is to use your pinky to hold up the scales. This will allow you to control the razor really well when you get the hang of it, and the blade rocking will be fixed.

Regarding the back and forth stroke, I find it completely worthless. Unless you have a mathematically flat stone and a razor with perfect geometry, a straight back and forth stroke will leave part of the razor behind at minimum and completely unhoned at worst. An X stroke will make up for any slight imperfections in the hone's surface, and it will ensure that your entire bevel gets worked (same is true for circles).

Originally Posted by avatar1999

On a side note, Glen, are we supposed to drop back down to the 4k when trying different techniques? Or is it enough to just try the new techniques on the 8k, strop and shave?

Good question, I don't see why you would have to and still stay within the spirit of the JaNorton Challenge, if you wanted to I don't see why not either, your still just using the 4/8 so I think either way is good...

My first shave for this:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shave...tml#post899593


On the Back and Forth strokes I am assuming you are refering to honing strokes, as in straight down the hone flip the razor and straight back down the hone... If so, I agree they are not a good idea, but I also don't think they are really feasible either, I think there is always some side motion to your stroke anyway...
If you are refering to setting a bevel using Japanese style honing strokes then if you look close you will see that the razor is being moved not only back and forth but also in a diagonal motion... or it should be LOL

OK. Here we go...
Instead of highlighting any stars of my meager collection I wanted to find some ugly "duck"lings to use for JaNorton. I ended up with two very different razors, niether close to shave ready, chosen, honed and shaved with today.



The top one is I believe a Wade & Butcher; the only mark left on the tang is an Iron Cross as seen on many Wades. The horn scales are shot, pitted, cracked, and very warped. The blade is in good shape, with a minimal amount of hone wear--paid $10.38 plus a few bucks shipping.

The second was a fun grab! Advertised as a *VINTAGE* KRUSIUS BROTHERS "K BEXTRA" STRAIGHT RAZOR, it was clear from the photos that in was a DublDuck blade (aged but unused) in some F.W. Engles Leader scales (good shape) in a Krusius box. I did drop about $40 but I saw utility in the unused SatinEdge blade. I call it a LeaderDuck.

I'm going to condense...

After lapping the 4000K side lightly and leaving the slurry I did 20 circles followed by 10 back-and-forths X2 to establish a bevel on each razor. I didn't want to over-hone, as is my nature, so I then moved to the 8000. I needed to deeply lap the 8000 side--I guess because my previous lapping work has been lazy. After getting rid of my pencil grid I left some slurry on the stone and got to work.

The LeaderDuck got a layer of tape, and a series of 10 circles followed by ten draws on the Norton. 1st = no arm pop. Second = a few pop. 3rd = most pop, and after that I repeated circles and strokes as I dialed in the edge. I guess I ended up with four more circle/draw rounds before the edge was good along the entire length. I usually get the heel and mid blade first, then adjust my (light) pressure to get the toe done.

The Suspected Wade & Butcher (1/4 hollow maybe?) got two layers of tape as the bevel was looking too wide. I basically repeated the above procedure, but although I could pop some arm hairs sooner, it seemed to take longer to finish the edge. As I got closer I went to straight draws of the razor on the hone, sometimes adding a curved stroke (my bastardized "X" pattern) to work the toe and provide more of a finish to the polished bevel.

I shaved with the Wade tonight late--I'm up too early tomorrow to wake SWMBO shaving, and I was eager to get busy! All razors get the 3" Tony Miller treatment--50 on the linen and 30 to 50 on the leather.


RazoRock Santa Maria
Simpson Beaufort 4 Pure Badger
Wade & Butcher 11/16" Square point 1/4 hollow
Shower prep
RazoRock Alum
Water and olive oil after splash

DFS! I felt more feedback than I'm used to, especially as I've been wedging these last few weeks (the silent plow!), but at this point in time the results were very good. Two passes, one WTG one AGT, with water touch up. I wasn't expecting as close a shave as I got, in part because I SELDOM get HHT results, although I can pop arm hair with ease and get a comfortable shave. (I started shaving with a Lynn-honed Dovo, but I'm fresh into my honing learning curve.) I think I might touch-up the Wade to see if I can quiet the blade down a little. A majority of my blades are full and half-hollow so I'm used to that classic feedback--but this seemed a bit much. No real tugging or discomfort, just a loud shave.

I'll try the LeaderDuck next--I can barely wait!

Ok, we're on!

Today was my first shave of 2012, and I used the Brian Brown quarter hollow I honed the other day.
Now that razor sure didn't like the Norton at first, I had to start from scratch three times before I got it...
I first tried it like I did the Gotta, doing what Glen does in his first Norton video, but no go, a even and nice edge didn't happen. Then I tried Lynns "circle method" he made a video of a few days ago, but again no go.

At this point in time I was pretty much ready to pick another razor for JaNorton, as the BB just didn't want to give me a even shaving edge. But that would be the easy way out, so I couldn't do that!
So I took a close look at it and tried to figure out why it gave me problems. When I bought it the bevel wasn't very even, and while it has be "reset" since new, I figure the original uneven bevel came back to haunt me some. Also, the 1095 steel seems quite hard.

So what I did was pretty much doubling the time on 4k, pushing the heel side of the blade where the bevel wasn't even until it looked and felt right. Then I moved on to the 8k, doing 5 regular strokes, 5 x-strokes, 5 regular strokes again. Then I cleaned the 8k, wiped of most of the water and gave it about 20 strokes until the hone was damp.

50 laps on the Scrupleworks linen and 50/100 on the Kanayama leathers.


Today was the second shave on that honing, stropping was 50 laps on the Scrupleworks linen, 50 on the leather, then 50 on a cordovan-ish Ambrose strop.
Using my 100x microscope, the edge looked finer after this stropping compared to the post honing stropping.
And the shave felt a tad smoother as well.
Totally acceptable shave!


By blix72 at 2012-01-02

I wonder how Lynn will fare with testing the ones he hones for other people if he's only allowed to shave with the 2 norton honed ones this month :P

cue backlog!