Thread: I need some Coticule help

I have a 50 x 175mm coticule and I was going to use it as a finisher. I used my Dovo Carre, that had a very sharp Naniwa SS edge, as my test razor. My first try was with just water, I think I did 40 light laps. I did 60 laps on linen and 100 on horse hide. I shaved with it and thought "It feels dull...more laps should make it better" I got an ok shave with it.

I went back to the coticule and did 40 more laps, 60 linen and 100 horse hide. I shaved with it again and got a better shave but the Naniwa edge gave me a much closer shave.

So I went back to the coticule again but this time I used a light slurry. It looked like 2% milk and I used a slurry stone to make it. I did 30 light laps and noticed the slurry was only light gray (slow cutter?). I then sprayed the slurry with water one time every 10 laps until the slurry was clear. I then washed the coticule and the razor and used just water for about 80 laps. I did notice the razor "sticking" while I was doing the stroke away from me (that never happened with the Naniwa SS) but It was smooth as I did the stroke towards me.

I did my usual strop routine and even tried a HHT. It failed badly but I shaved with it anyway. That thing was pulling all through my first pass. I had to do a lot more work on my third pass than usual. It gave me a poor shave

What should I do?

RC,

I've not heard of many guys that get a coti and have instant success. They seem to take more finesse than synthetics. I had a hard time with them. I can still get a better edge on several other stones, though twice I got an edge that would rival my jnat. That was satisfying.
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Process Observations:
Slurry - 2% Milk consistency is not light. With some fast cutting coties it might be lower than a 4k grit.
"Sprayed" the slurry w/ water. You're right to dilute the slurry, but I'm hearing a squirt from a spray bottle & that would be way too fast a dilution. 50x175 - two drops would be closer. Its a slower process.

As an alternative, you might want to see Lynn's vid on honing w/ a coti. I haven't seen or tried a method that is faster - and on many blades - it gave results in the top 15% of coti edges for me. Its mostly circles.

As a variation, if the edge is close, but could be a little better, try some backstrokes (spine leading) at the end of each sequence of circle - using Lynn's method. and/or put on a single layer of elec. tape for your last 10 or so strokes. The backstroke has helped me a number of times & I now use it regularly.

Originally Posted by pinklather

RC,

I've not heard of many guys that get a coti and have instant success. They seem to take more finesse than synthetics. I had a hard time with them. I can still get a better edge on several other stones, though twice I got an edge that would rival my jnat. That was satisfying.
.
Process Observations:
Slurry - 2% Milk consistency is not light. With some fast cutting coties it might be lower than a 4k grit.
"Sprayed" the slurry w/ water. You're right to dilute the slurry, but I'm hearing a squirt from a spray bottle & that would be way too fast a dilution. 50x175 - two drops would be closer. Its a slower process.

As an alternative, you might want to see Lynn's vid on honing w/ a coti. I haven't seen or tried a method that is faster - and on many blades - it gave results in the top 15% of coti edges for me. Its mostly circles.

As a variation, if the edge is close, but could be a little better, try some backstrokes (spine leading) at the end of each sequence of circle - using Lynn's method. and/or put on a single layer of elec. tape for your last 10 or so strokes. The backstroke has helped me a number of times & I now use it regularly.

Thanks for the help. I just watched Lynn's video and tried to repeat the process. The razor is popping arm hair but won't catch hair med length. Maybe I made the slurry too thick? I'll use drops of water instead of a spray from the water bottle. My Naniwa SS are looking better and better but I'll keep at it with the coticule.

Which Naniwa were you coming off of?

Also, coticules are generally known for producing an edge that shaves very "smoothly." My experience has been that other finishers give "sharper" edges.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Which Naniwa were you coming off of?

Also, coticules are generally known for producing an edge that shaves very "smoothly." My experience has been that other finishers give "sharper" edges.

I did a small 5k & 8k pyramid, 20 laps on a 10k and then 20 laps on a 12k. That was 7 shaves ago.

This isn't what people like to read maybe. But I'd never follow a Naniwa 12k with a coticule. Your edge is as good as it'll get. The odds of your coticule improving that edge are very small. If you want a coticule edge, stop at 8k and move to coticule. If you want a sharp razor, use the Naniwa. Some guys LOVE coticules. I assume they don't use much of anything else. Others, are a little more lukewarm about coticules...I assume those people have used other stones. Anyhow, keep at it. At some point, you'll decide whether your coticule is capable of doing what you're asking it to do. If it is, then great....you figured it out. If not, well...don't be too surprised.

I'd bet the stiction your feeling on the "away" stroke is a result of greater pressure being applied, than on the return stroke. 30 slurried strokes giving swarf tells me your stone is pretty aggressive. I have coticules that won't create swarf in 60 strokes. And ofc, this is all just me guessing. Maybe something here will help. Or maybe not. Best of luck!

Clarity edit: I meant to say that if you've become accustomed to a Naniwa 12k edge, then the coticule edge will probably seem dull to you. This has been my experience. Test group consisting of 20+ vintage coticule stones,only two of which labeled as razor hones ,over about a 6-9 month period of die hard coticule love, followed by a switch to an all synthetic progression. I tried for a long time..got the synthetics..never went back, except for comparisons sake. Haven't yet found a coticule edge I preferred over other available options.

Originally Posted by regularjoe

This isn't what people like to read maybe. But I'd never follow a Naniwa 12k with a coticule. Your edge is as good as it'll get. The odds of your coticule improving that edge are very small. If you want a coticule edge, stop at 8k and move to coticule. If you want a sharp razor, use the Naniwa. Some guys LOVE coticules. I assume they don't use much of anything else. Others, are a little more lukewarm about coticules...I assume those people have used other stones. Anyhow, keep at it. At some point, you'll decide whether your coticule is capable of doing what you're asking it to do. If it is, then great....you figured it out. If not, well...don't be too surprised.

I'd bet the stiction your feeling on the "away" stroke is a result of greater pressure being applied, than on the return stroke. 30 slurried strokes giving swarf tells me your stone is pretty aggressive. I have coticules that won't create swarf in 60 strokes. And ofc, this is all just me guessing. Maybe something here will help. Or maybe not. Best of luck!

Clarity edit: I meant to say that if you've become accustomed to a Naniwa 12k edge, then the coticule edge will probably seem dull to you. This has been my experience. Test group consisting of 20+ vintage coticule stones,only two of which labeled as razor hones ,over about a 6-9 month period of die hard coticule love, followed by a switch to an all synthetic progression. I tried for a long time..got the synthetics..never went back, except for comparisons sake. Haven't yet found a coticule edge I preferred over other available options.

I really do like my Naniwa edges but you know how it is...got to try a different stone. I guess I got to figure out my coticule. I hope the Naniwa SS haven't spoiled me.

Maybe not spoiled you. Just changed your preference. I really used to love a coticule edge. And they really were great back then. They were smooth, they felt good. But you know what they were NOT? Sharp, is what they were not. I like a sharper edge than I can get on a coticule. So, that's where I went with it. I'll be interested to hear what you think about it all in a few months or a year. Everything changes. I don't think that stops until maybe five years+ for people who are really trying to learn as much as they can. Even the guys with 10 years plus have some epiphanies from time to time I'm sure. The beauty is, that you can really stop and settle in to what you believe about things at any time. Or, you can keep going, and see what bears out. I'm enjoying it anyhow.

Do you know that this coticule is definitely a finisher for razors ? i.e. Was it sold as such or used previously as such ?
Worse case scenario it's not up to the job.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Do you know that this coticule is definitely a finisher for razors ? i.e. Was it sold as such or used previously as such ?
Worse case scenario it's not up to the job.

It wasn't sold as a finisher. I bought and thought I could use it as a finisher. Maybe not? I still need a lot of practice before I pass judgement on it. I thought all coticules could be a finisher?