Thread: Anyone have experience with CTS-XHP

Originally Posted by L R Harner

mike since this is a passaround i woudl be more then happy to let you run it around the hones and your face i ll take any and all feedback i can get ...

Thanks, put me at the end of the line, as I don't shave enough face to give a good sample, and there are more guys ahead of me on the pro-shaving and pro-honing list that will give a better review. I will watch this material with equal interest though.

Originally Posted by Tierdaen

Out of curiosity, have you used one of Mr. Harner's blades from the steel in question, or have you done much experimentation with it? Your rejection seems rather matter-of-fact.

Not any of his blades, but I have used other super steel razors.
I use one of those steels myself for wife-proof kitchen knives.

Firstly, my remark is about the material itself. Carbon steel is cheap, easy to work by anyone, and easy to heat treat. Supersteels are expensive, harder to work, you can't even forge some of them, and heat treatment is not something you can do without at least a semi professional setup. In terms working it as a material, carbon steel is a clear win.

Then you have to look at intended use. Most of those supersteels have been designed for heavy duty work. To take one silly example: I know a guy who had a razor custom made of M4 steel, and heat treated to max hardness. If you look at what M4 was meant for, you'll see that such a razor would be almost impossible to hone (and indeed proved to be just that). M4 is ideal for heavy duty chisels for high speed steel lathes, but its extreme wear resistance makes it near impossible to hone.

Third, a very important factor for razors is grain size, and in most supersteels, the goal is still to end up with the properties of supersteel and the grain size of carbon steel. In other words, in terms of possible thinness of the edge, carbon steel is still the gold standard.

In the end, a razor is a tool with a very delicate edge, but with virtually zero need for any other properties than edge retention and small grain size. Being stainless is not that big an advantage for anyone who properly maintains his razors. Being tough is almost irrelevant because it's not a prybar or some other tool dealing with shearing forces. Being very wear resistant is even less desirable because wear resistance means it is much harder to hone. The only things important for razors are fine grain size and a hardness that is high enough for edge retention but not high enough to become brittle.

In terms of material, super steels are at best equivalent in the areas where it matters, and bring only improvements where it doesn't. For the purpose of straight razors, that is. Not talking about heavy duty tools. That doesn't mean I think supersteels are bad. I just think that for the purpose of making razors, they don't add anything that is important enough to offset the increased cost and bother of working them.

Originally Posted by BobH

Add to that I am old enough not to be too swayed by the use of the words "wonder", "super" or "new and improved" in describing any new product. I am open to proof that a new product is an improvement though. It would have to be proven to be a big improvement, not incremental, for me to rush out and buy it. That is not a grudge just being practical.

Bob

I am not that old yet, but old enough to remember coca cola switching to the 'new taste', and then switching back to 'original' not long afterwards, and make a big dealing out of it

i have often told newmakers not to use steels like s30 and s35vn or M4 even tho they are said to be fine grain they can make a fine pocket knife but as has been pointed out the carbides get in the way
the XHP is no super steel the way many in the knife world rat "super steels" as its far short on carbides that they value for that toothy knife edge that cuts a long time
before Carpenter released XHP i used cpm154 cause it was as close as i could get to a SS that was even semi smooth cpmD2 was a bit beter but never really hit the market so size barstock i needed were hard to find. the next steels on my list to try were aeb-l (from the start made for the razor manufacturers in mind) and 13c26
for me tho i like to use as much USA made product as i can

i did talk with hartsteel and they will look into XHP for a short run of razors to offer a better pricepoint then an full custom. as far as why even look for a SS that is really close to carbon steel shave well thats easy im custom so i give other options (i for one liek not havig to dry off my razor after i shave ) ride it hard and put it away wet as they say

The blade business will always be pushing the edge so to speak, in the search for the "latest greatest." Because they can afford it, because they are looking for that last little tweak on the marketing side of things. Why not try all these things? The information adds to the general pool of knowledge, but the problem is that a good many very good steels get cast aside and never developed to their full potential because they are now has-beens, usually in about six months. It's an intensely competitive world where none of this really has to happen, but it does because human beings are competitive.

If you really consider the history of iron and steel, a lot of acceptably adequate to more than adequate blades were made from very ordinary materials, using very ordinary methods for a lot longer than our generation has seen micro structural and alloy development in its lifetime. For the most part, we have abandoned perfectly good steels like 12C27 (13C26 because they don't make 12C27 any more) or AEB-L (pretty much the same recipe from two different steel giants), or O-1 or plain 10xx carbon steels, and have not pursued pushing those materials to their maximum because of the distraction of "the perfect, or some new thread on one of the blade forums."

Originally Posted by L R Harner

i did talk with hartsteel and they will look into XHP for a short run of razors to offer a better pricepoint then an full custom. as far as why even look for a SS that is really close to carbon steel shave well thats easy im custom so i give other options (i for one liek not havig to dry off my razor after i shave ) ride it hard and put it away wet as they say

That is very interesting. It would be good if you could keep us informed on that front and a heads up if they do produce that run. You have my curiosity up now and that might be a manageable way to try that new SS out.

Bob

Big +1 to Brunos post. Every main reason is there why I didn't experiment with the majority of blade steels out there.

I'd like to add that I totally understand Mr. Harners argument about providing options. If you're a customs maker for a living, you need to provide what people will buy, and a lot of knife collectors are always looking for the next super steel. And in outdoors knives and heavy duty tools, those supersteels might even have their use where they are objectively better than plain tool steels. If there's a market and it's your job, you'd be silly to ignore that market, regardless of whether it makes functional sense to use super steel over simple steel.

This has been a very interesting thread. A lot of new info for me and really well thought out, and tactfully written, posts.

Thanks guys

Name: XHP steel.JPG Views: 154 Size: 72.1 KB

Well, guess what? Carpenter Steel is less than 5 miles from my rec room computer chair. Several of my neighbors, former co-workers and acquaintances are employed at Carpenter Specialty Steel. They are traded publicly and are doing well as usual. They have some secret specialty alloys for the weapons industry. Very interesting company.

Jerry
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