Thread: Japanese Kitchen Knives

Originally Posted by richmondesi

So, the price of the knife isn't that important to me. If I could hit a home-run guaranteed, I'd pay whatever it cost to do it. However, just like razors, I know that's not likely. Also, I'm more of a carbon guy in general.

I never considered getting a clever like that, but those vids rocked

Paul, to hit a home run you need experience,I think.
Maybe a few cheapies to get you started & get a feel for the blades...
However, if cost is no issue, mayne a Shigefusa in full polish
Japan Tool - Knives - Shigefusa Santoku

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Sean,

Thanks for the specific recommendations. That's perfect. Recently, I befriended a custom knife maker local to me, but I've not seen any kitchen knives that he's done. He's offered to let me work in his shop, and he's going to teach me how to forge and how to do damascus as well. I may end up making a few of my own

These knives are as interesting, if not more so than razors

That's great that you know someone who can show you the ropes! I would certainly take advantage of the opportunity. However I must say this;

I would use caution when approaching a knife maker that has little experience making kitchen knives. I've seen a lot of duds from very high class smiths that are used to making a different kind of knife. They might make the best hunters or razors, but a kitchen knife calls for a different set of principles. I remember when Butch was getting into it, he got great reviews, but they actually got better and better and you could see the F&F improve. They might get lucky, but it's extremely uncommon to nail it the first few times. I'd still work up to a custom knife so you have a good benchmark for quality and a taste of your own preferences.

- Sean

Originally Posted by Potato42

That's great that you know someone who can show you the ropes! I would certainly take advantage of the opportunity. However I must say this;

I would use caution when approaching a knife maker that has little experience making kitchen knives. I've seen a lot of duds from very high class smiths that are used to making a different kind of knife. They might make the best hunters or razors, but a kitchen knife calls for a different set of principles. I remember when Butch was getting into it, he got great reviews, but they actually got better and better and you could see the F&F improve. They might get lucky, but it's extremely uncommon to nail it the first few times. I'd still work up to a custom knife so you have a good benchmark for quality and a taste of your own preferences.

- Sean

Well, I can't say for sure what he has done with regards to kitchen knives because we didn't discuss it, and I just recently met him. But, I fully agree with your point. The good thing is that steel is relatively cheap, and we'll be able to work at it and learn together if necessary. Besides, I'm only guessing that this may turn into a hobby that I stick with for quite some time. I'm sure that eventually, I'll figure it out

I cook alot and I have many knives.

First thing you have to decide is what the knife is for.

Vegitation= Ceramic

If you like something sharp and will be responsible with it (no dishwasher, use a knife block, don't use it on bones) then it will last practicaly forever and will stay sharp 12x longer than steel. I like Kyocera and the price is not too bad online.

Everything= Shun or Global

Shun is heavy and sharp

Global is light and sharp

both will stay sharp for a while but just like a razor if you don't treat them well then they won't treat you well.

I am a big Japanese knife enthusiast, I am also a professional chef (but now working toward my master barber license) who has worked with the best and worst knives. Shun are great knives as are global, misono, and so on. Really its all about preference as with anything. My two favorites are my Hattori HD-5 santoku, and my 240mm Hiramoto tenmi-jyuraku damascus gyuto. I have to say if you purchase knives of this caliber you will become a knife snob quickly. Both of these knives can shave the hair from my arm and I have not found any knife to compare to them (that I have used). Good luck with your search here are the links where I purchased them.JapaneseChefsKnife.Com Top Page Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Cutlery,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com
The Best Things - Where the Connoisseur Shops

Well I've used a few Japanese style kitchen knives and I ended up with a set of the Shun Classics. They're extremely sharp and the D shape handle works with the way I hold and cut with these knives. In my hands they feel great. It's really a good idea to go into a shop or a few shops and give as many knives as you can a try and find the ones that work the best for your hands

There was in interesting article on cooking for engineers about chef knives and what they did to test them. It's a good read and some decent information.

Right now I'm really hoping a Mac MTH-80 shows up for my bday as I really want to try one of these!

Cheers and good luck knife hunting!

- T -

I have found the Shun knives by KAI to be superb. I have a small vegetable knife (kind of like a small cleaver) it works wonderfully. It's the first knife I turn to, to slice or chop!!!!

KItchen knives have such a personal preference to them, what feels good in your hands and the style of cooking you do. My favorites are a mirror polished santoku blade and a recently a chinese cleaver from my cousin who is a chef. He got it from a friend that found it in china town in N.Y.
The cleaver is much thicker and heavier obviously but after I got it now has a wonderful edge. The cleaver is round and rocks well. The Santoku has a rounded edge very slightly more towards the tip but is considerable flatter than a regular chefs knife.

I have recently been doing some research into this subject in the past couple of months myself. while I do not proclaim to be anywhere close to an expert on the subject, I will share what I have learned.
First let me say that I ended up buying a Shun classic Santoku. I love the knife. It's lighter than European knives but not too light (which is my opinion of Globals). I like the D-shaped handle as it's very comfortable in my hand, and I like that they have a lifetime warranty. I have heard that the Tojiro DP series performes the same (or better depending on who you get your info from) for a cheaper price. Personally I really like the damascus look of the Shun over the Tojiro so I didn't mind the extra $30 or so. I am nto a big fan of the Shun chef's knife as it has a more German shape (lots of belly), which is why I bought the Santoku. I prefer knives with a flatter profile due to my style of chopping.
Japanese edges also tend to demand a different care than European edges. Due to generally having a harder Rockwell rating they tend to incur more micro chips than their softer European counterparts. This isn't a problem for me as I have a separate knife for cutting anything with bones in it, and I don't mind paying closer attention to my knife maintenance (straight razor shaving has trained me well). Hope this helps.

OK, here's my two cents:

I bought a santoku from Watanabeblade.com and never used my Victroinox stainless again. EVER. Those are now for my wife (she's afraid of my new cutlery). I found my carbon steel knife to hold a much sharper edge, for much longer. They are easy to use (note I use the term "use", not "maintain") and will allow you to develop new techniques in the kitchen. After this experience I completed the following set:

• 165 mm Watanabe Santoku (mentioned above). "Blue" steel Higane (core) clad in stainless Jigane. This turned out to be my favorite, most useful knife. Size is perfect, makings handling very easy and its low mass makes long sessions a breeze (japanese carbon knives tend to be a lot lighter than western stainless because they're usually thinner and because they use lighweight magnolia for the handles). Double bevel design means anyone who is used to western knives can use this with no additional learning. Stainless cladding also makes this knife easier to take care of. I highly recommend something like this for any beginner (just don't try to use an everyday coarse honing steeel - this baby requires whetstones or waterstones though not very frequently). Used in 90% of my food prep sessions for everything except meat carving (too short a blade). US$150-180 depending on options.
• A 300 mm Monzaburo Kiritsuke-style Yanagiba (a yanagiba is a slicer by definition, ideal for sashimi, skinning fish or general slicing of boneless meats). "Blue" steel Hagane. 300 mm is a very good length, as required for slicing fish or carving meats in one direction, without back-and-forth motion which can break apart the food. A little big for my cramped kitchen, but still useful (I just have to be mindful of where the tip is at any given time... easier said than done). Sharpening is slow but can be accomplished with the right set of stones (no pun intended). I use this knife less than 10% of the time since it is more specific and takes more skill to use (single bevel). Purchased from from Aframes Tokyo, about US$400.
• 180 mm Deba from Watanabe Blade (premium series). "White" steel Higane is slightly less prone to chipping than "blue" steel and this is important to me as I use the hefty Deba for cutting up and filleting fish, as well as dealing with poultry. Its size alone (it's a fairly thick blade) and single-bevel design will be intimidating at first. However, I prefer this for filleting fish over other knives as these two traits really shine. However, the heft, length of the bevel and curved blade path make this my most difficult knife to maintain. Used about 15% of the time. About US$215.
• 120 mm Mukimono, also from Watanabe. "blue" steel Higane. Great for paring, dicing garlic, cutting decorations and any other precision job. It's my replacement for the paring knife, although unlike the latter the Mukimono can lend itself to (very) small chopping chores. Easy to maintain due to its size. Used 40% of the time. US$175.
• My latest excentricity is a 270 mm Wa Gyuto, or Japanese chef's knife (described in earlier posts). Yoshikane, V2 steel clad in Tamamoku Wood Pattern steel (a kind of Damascene steel). I like that it lends itself to chopping or slicing (as well as carving) although 10.5 inches were a bit too much, as this only covers the length of the blade. Total length is a whopping 17 3/4 inches! Way too big for my kitchen; I use this knife sparingly for relaxed food prep sessions, slicing large veggies and scaring away unwanted intruders. Used 5% of the time. For anyone else, I would suggest sticking to 240 or 210 mm Gyutos. I got this knife from Takeshi at Aframes Tokyo, shelling out 400 bucks for it (Yikes!, I have yet to come clean on this one with the wife).

To summarize, for any beginner I definitely recommend a small Santoku (165 or 180 mm blade) as there's no tip to break off and using its double bevel design will come naturally. This way one can get used to the additional care required by carbon steel knives (basic care, rust prevention, etc.) while enjoying its amazing performance. Even if you are just curious, but spend considerable time doing food prep, I recommend the investment.

If the shoe fits, I would follow with a Deba (if seafood is a relevant part of your diet) or a Mukimono or similar paring-size knife (really fun to use). Finally, if you are interested in preparing sushi or cutting up a lot of fish, go with a standard Yanagiba, though no longer than 240 mm if your kitchen is small (otherwise I would go all the way to 300).

If, on the other hand, you are only interested in purchasing a single jack-of-all-trades, a 240 mm Gyuto might be a better choice than all of these. Also, I understand a Nakkiri (straight-edged, broad thin blade for chopping veggies) is a common addition, but with my Santoku I have had no need for one or, to be more accurate, I have managed to avoid the temptation.

One final, but very important note: Japanese knives have been designed for honing on whetstones or waterstones (although a diamond-loaded strop may do for everyday maintenance, or so I hear). This means that maintaining a set of knives will require an array of medium to very fine stones for chip repair and normal honing, unless you plan to have your knives professionally sharpened every so often. Carbon steel holds its edge much longer than stainless, but these knives will eventually dull and, depending on the abuse, chip. While I'm sure that this is no new idea to any forum member, I assure you that maintaining these knives will take some getting use to for anyone who has not dealt with them.

That's it. Hopefully I won't get banned for excessive ranting.