Thread: Damascus blade

Is there any real value to "layered"/folded steel? I think I read somewhere that this method was used because the steel they were working with was low quality with impurities and they used this layering/folding method to help produce a higher grade final product.


Justin

No functional difference eh? I would ask Mr Blue if he has ever shaved with a TI damascus or honed one or even handled one or has he just seen pictures of them. I guess I'm just a sucker for buying one then but I'll tell you this from my experience and I have 60 razors including carbon and stainless and all the well known brands and the TI is like nothing else out there. It doesn't shave like it, it doesn't hone like it and I think lynn will agree with me.

However its made it's different.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

No functional difference eh? I would ask Mr Blue if he has ever shaved with a TI damascus or honed one or even handled one or has he just seen pictures of them. I guess I'm just a sucker for buying one then but I'll tell you this from my experience and I have 60 razors including carbon and stainless and all the well known brands and the TI is like nothing else out there. It doesn't shave like it, it doesn't hone like it and I think lynn will agree with me.
However its made it's different.

No functional difference given the conditions I specified. You certainly have a right to question. My creds go a lot deeper than looking at pictures and talking religion about razors.

I do have TI razors (more than one) here at home. They are used in regular rotation and shave very well thank you. I hone my own, well enough to know a good shave from a bad one. I don't need to handle a TI damascus, the tale was right there to be seen in the pictures.

I have no need for a TI "damascus" razor because I have about 400 lbs of pattern welded steel on my bench in various states of folding and finish. It's what I've been quite good at for the last 22 years or so. If I want a pattern welded razor, I'll make my own. Ask Randy, he's been to my shop.

Maybe I'll even sell you one just so you can complain about my prices.

I have all the requisite equipment to manufacture my own steel, from start to finish, either as the Japanese do with their sword steels, or in crucibles, including all the correct chemistry to make wootz according to the Pendray/Verhoeven recipes. Not only that, I've made knives from wootz billets made by Mr. Pendray and by Ric Furrer who routinely makes his own wootz. I still have some samples of each of those fellow's material saved up for a rainy day.

Dennis H., who owns Brisa in Finland, is a good friend of mine as well. I'm sure that he's buying wootz made by Roselli, because they are the big dog on the European block when it comes to wootz material.

There is nothing magical or mysterious about wootz from a crucible or pattern welded materials in layers. The secret, which I gladly gave away, is in the heat treatment. TI does have a good operating HT process and I think I alluded to that previously as well. I have a lot of respect for folks who do things right. Enough so that despite the fact that I could make my own, I use one of Thiers (I love it when a good play on words comes together!)

The pattern won't give the edge any better performance, despite continuing mythology to the contrary. A polished/honed edge is just that, polished and honed. It'll look the same on a patterned blade or a monosteel blade.

The fact that TI knows how to make a good grind and set up the razor for good performance initially, has good to better heat treatment, those are the items that will make the difference. The pattern is merely an appearance factor on the parts of the blade that don't contribute to the shave.

But let's, keep the experiment fair and scientific. The comparison you want should be made between a TI damascus razor and a plain carbon steel TI razor of similar qualities among all variables. The difference will not be the pattern alone.

Why not contact TI and ask them about this debate? I'd prefer you ask the grinders and heat treaters and not the marketing department. I've read all that hype. There's much more worth knowing from their published photos than anything marketing could say to convince me of anything.

Wanna put some money on their answer?

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Is there any real value to "layered"/folded steel? I think I read somewhere that this method was used because the steel they were working with was low quality with impurities and they used this layering/folding method to help produce a higher grade final product. Justin

Justin, in the "old days" when steel was the most valuable product, the smiths tried to make a little go a long ways. It's the reason for a high carbon steel bit welded into the cutting edge of an axe with the rest of the axe body being wrought or plain iron. Save the good steel for the place where it will do the most good.

In the manufacture of a Japanese sword, the bloom steel is so filled with holes, slags, glasses, impurities from the smelting process that folding is required to best reduce the impurities and flaws in the material. The repetitive hammering and folding do just that. It's a cleaning process, nothing more.

Higher grade? Maybe in the eye of the beholder. When you take a good high carbon steel and weld it in layers with a low carbon steel, carbon averaging takes place over the first four heats/welds. So if you started with a 1.0% carbon steel and welded it to a 0.10% carbon steel, eventually you wind up with a 0.55% carbon steel. You've made one good steel worse and improved the other.

Good questions you have there.

Thanks Mike. So I guess I was right about the folding method being a process to remove impurities -- just would like to know how they can justify the cost of some of the products produced by this method ----is it al about mystique and "old world craftsmanship" or does it produce some quantifiably superior metal.

Again thanks for the feedback.


Justin

Is it quantifiably better material?

I'd argue against that statement.

Given the same carbon content and relatively similar amounts of minor alloying elements, given the same heat treatment appropriate to the carbon content, there will be no functional difference between a pattern welded blade and a monosteel blade of such similar criteria. The only differences will be aesthetic. I have no control over subjective opinions. Carbon content and heat treatment, I can control those.

Over the years lots of folks "wanted" the material to be better, they "believed" it was better, but as knowledge of heat treatment and the metallurgical knowledge of the parent materials has improved among blademakers, the reality of the material just can't be ignored.

I'll give up that it's more beautiful, all that. But it doesn't cut any better. It's a lot more work, and I'll give anyone credit who makes their own steel. If it works, sure there should be some value given for having learned how to do it well, then being consistent in the results, or blades having a reputation for durability and so on. The craftsperson should be paid according to their efforts. There are lesser recipes for PW steels out there that look good, but they are not as good as they could be. And, it could be the best steel(s) available, but if heat treated badly, no better than average. So, the buyer should still beware for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with the material itself.

There are some really good scientific tests that were completed in Britain a few years back. The CATRAL testing machine was invented (Spyderco in the US actually owns one of these machines) and a number of very good steels were compared for abrasion resistance, edge durability, against various edge geometries, even within the same steel using different heat treatment regimes. At the time, 52100 outlasted the competition "as hardened". Now it's been superceded by S30V and a couple other of the CPM (crucible particle metallurgical) steels. At the time wootz (Pendray & Verhoeven stock) was included in the testing. So were some pattern-welded blades of various compositions.

Compared to 52100 (the best at the time) in the "as hardened" state, 52100 was still the winner. Compared to 52100 "as hardened" and wootz "in the annealed state (aka soft)", wootz outcut hardened 52100 all day long. The pattern welded blades did not do any better against similar steel chemistries in monosteel and fell off the list pretty quick compared to 52100.

What? A SOFT steel out cut a hardened steel? I'm not joking, do the search, it's all out there to be found. But a critical difference about wootz was discovered in this testing. It cuts better soft. It is a different material. Not magical, actually not all that special either. Except special in that the process recipes were lost to history. Probably very simply due to the native ores containing vanadium played out. Eventually also compromised by the transition to firearms. That P & V took the time and effort (maybe ten years) to rediscover the recipe is impressive and that makes it special too.

Ah, back to razors. Wootz would probably make a better razor if it was hardened. Soft there is no razor edge possible, the pearlite matrix wears away too fast. Hard, wootz will tear the hell out of your honing stones. It's incredibly abrasion resistant, but that is another legitimate criteria for cutting performance, even if it won't pass the hanging hair test. 52100 would make good razors, but honestly, the heat treatment regimen has a very narrow performance window and you have to hit it just right. If you do, oh my, it's a great steel. There are other steels that are more forgiving to the heat treater if things are not very exact.

So, the answer is, it all depends. There are always trade offs, purpose driven criteria. After those are satisfied, the rest is marketing. Hope I covered the question.

Yes, Mike I think you covered it. I really appreciate the time and effort you gave in the reply ----all very interesting.


Justin

So the question is....does Mike Blue use a Big Blu?

Wow - this is a really interesting thread - a lot of fascinating information here - probably none that I will ever need or use, but interesting nontheless.

-so, when I think of Damascus, I guess it's really the pattern welded steel - which is layers of two different steel types edge welded together

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Higher grade? Maybe in the eye of the beholder. When you take a good high carbon steel and weld it in layers with a low carbon steel, carbon averaging takes place over the first four heats/welds.

So, over the years, as you hone your razor, do the qualities of the cutting edge change as you abrade through the different layers.

-not that I need to know....just curious.

-whatever

-Lou

This issue of exactly what does TI use in their "damascus" razors has come up many times over the years and I was going to suggest that maybe someone should ask them if they would tell you. I'd be willing to bet they won't give a definitive answer. Probably a trade secret. All I do know from a practical standpoint as a user is its tough stuff whatever it may be.