Thread: Damascus blade

I'd like to re-visit an old topic - I have the chance to purchase
a Damascus blade and I am very tempted. Not too many of us had the chance to become familiar with or use a Damascus but I am sure some of you have a Maestro Livi.
Can some of you guys give me some feedback and opinion?
Thanks!

Well grasshopper now you'll get it from the horse's mouth.

I have 2 a TI Damascus and a livi. I'm not sure I would consider the maestro a true damascus, rather a damascus pattern. I know its made from a block of damasteel but to me TI is a true wootz steel made from layers.

Having said that the Livi is an an outstanding shaver. I have about 60 razors in my rotation and nothing outshaves it. There are equals to it but nothing better. The TI is another story. It came to me in abysmal shaving condition and it took many months of honing to get it shave ready. I've had it a couple of years now and it gives a great shave now. But its not in the same class as the Livi. The curious thing about the TI is the more I use it the better it gets. I've probably shaved with it 25 times since the last touchup and instead of getting dull its actually still getting better each time I use it. Tough stuff. The Livi ain't no slouch either. Its racked up many shaves.

So the bottom line is if your considering a Livi, get it you won't be disappointed.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I'm not sure I would consider the maestro a true damascus, rather a damascus pattern. I know its made from a block of damasteel but to me TI is a true wootz steel made from layers.

If you're basing your understanding of steels on the TI advertising, let's establish first, that it's advertising, and it pushes the boundaries of what IS known about old steel and the modern equivalents. Allow me to set some definitions that are really not interchangeable.

Wootz, or bulat, or pulad, (many names, but considered "true" damascus steel), is made in a crucible. That process is what gives the surface the "watered" appearance that is classic wootz. It is not folded, welded or layered. It could be, after all it is a bar of steel, but it's generally not. There are any number of people currently alive who can and do make this steel on a regular, but small production, basis. The best known is Alfred Pendray. Roselli, the company, also makes a crucible steel for their line of knives. Being a European supplier, no doubt, samples or purchases have made their way into production there.

Pattern welded steels, aka modern damascus (crudely misnamed), are layered and welded billets of two similar but different alloys containing elements enough to make an appearance contrast between the two parent materials. This has a much stronger layered appearance on the surface of the material. There are a lot of folks making this type of steel. It's simply easier to do and I would not be surprised at all to know that folks living around Thiers do this regularly.

Both types, wootz and PWS, can be cut, incised, drilled, scored or manipulated to produce patterns in the surface appearance.

Damasteel is a trade name of a particular type of patterned steel made in Europe by sintering different powdered alloys together to make a single bar. Mostly made of stainless steels, it has the surface appearance of layers without the risk of welding flaws and all the supposed advantages of stain resistance. It requiers a serious industrial basis to manufacture. It's not bad material either.

I've looked at pictures of the TI blades in question. As many as I could find on the internet this morning in a couple brief searches. Of the blades I reviewed, all are pattern welded, not wootz. This is not to say that someone at TI never made a wootz blade, but that none of the photos available for study are of wootz.

Now, given all that. The secret is in the heat treatment. TI certainly has that down well.

If given two blades, one of patterned material and one plain carbon steel, ground to similar edge profiles and bevels, with similar carbon content and heat treatment, there will be no functional difference between the two. The only difference is in the appearance and aesthetic of the blade. Sorry, we can't do the same with stainless', there are simply too many alloying differences to control.

Honing and daily use introduce a completely new set of variables that are beyond my ability to comment. But the above conditions provide a starting point for comparison.

I'd love a wootz razor. AFAIK no-one makes one. The TI and the maestro livi are both pattern welded, as Mr blue says.

I bet TI have never made a wootz blade.

Wanna get a real damascus razor?

1) Acquire a damascus sword
2) Grind off everything that doesn't look like a razor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel
this is a very interesting read
conclusion: unless the razor is made from an old sword it aint Damascus steel

Wrong, modern wootz is made in small quantities by some people. Brisa.fi were selling some for a while.

There are a few custom razor makers.

Put the two together and you have a wootz razor.

They're making something they *think* is *similar* to the old damascus steel. Until some professor somewhere comes up with another theory...

No, they're producing something that has been tested and compared to old crucible steel and is extremely similar. And they've worked out how to keep the carbides in layers so they produce pretty patterns. That is reproduction damascus. I prefer to call it wootz because most people mean pattern welded steel when they say damascus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html

http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm

My scepticism is due to there having been multiple flavors of steel over the years that have been tested and found to be similar to genuine damascus. Then some professor comes out with another theory that changes the requirements for being "similar to genuine damascus".

At first it was just the layers of high and low carbon steel, so pattern-welded steel was judged to be "similar to genuine damascus". Then it was the discovery of a new crystalline structure that allowed extremely high carbon content without brittleness and that when produced under primitive conditions and worked at low temperatures tended to produce the damascus pattern. Then it was trace amounts of vanadium or whatever from the played-out mines in India that was important. Recently some new professor has written a paper claiming that the secret to genuine damascus are the carbon nanotubes embedded in it as determined by electron microscopy.