Thread: Damascus blade

Originally Posted by scarface

... -so, when I think of Damascus, I guess it's really the pattern welded steel - which is layers of two different steel types edge welded together

So, over the years, as you hone your razor, do the qualities of the cutting edge change as you abrade through the different layers.

Most folks who are selling "damascus" steels these days are selling pattern welded material, layers of differing steels. Until Alfred Pendray got the bug for the experimentation to reproduce wootz (the original damascus steel of historical note) in the eighties, there wasn't any name competition.

Buried in a couple posts previously is the concept of carbon averaging or carbon migration. Simply, during the welding process to make a billet of PW steel, carbon will "even out" throughout the billet. Each layer will then have the same general cutting ability/abrasion resistance/toughness/harness of the whole. There will only be appearance differences between the layers, not performance differences.

The one exception would be when pure nickle is used in the layering. For the most part, of the makers I know, whose methods I know, the layer count on those steel mixtures is high enough, the starting thickness of the nickel (in thousandths) is small enough in the beginning stages (and decreases with forging), the carbon steels on either side of the nickel shim are supportive enough, that I suspect it would be difficult to feel a difference in shaving regardless. At least for this exception.

Likely of more significance, over time, would be the depth or section thickness of the material heat treated. Theoretically, you could wear away, over a lifetime's use now, enough hardened steel to get down into a thicker section that had not hardened to the same degree as the edge and a noticeable difference in shaving quality would be apparent. Also contributing would be the changed angle of the bevel at the edge due to that wear.

There are lots more variables contributing to this thought problem aren't there?

[quote=Mike Blue;92090]If you're basing your understanding of steels on the TI advertising, let's establish first, that it's advertising, and it pushes the boundaries of what IS known about old steel and the modern equivalents. Allow me to set some definitions that are really not interchangeable.

Hi Mike,

fancy seeing you here - BB members seem to pop up in the most interesting of places don't they

Lot's of good technical information here. Only thing I can say is that if you haven't actually honed one or shaved with one, no matter what we are talking about then you can only speculate. Not that that is the worse thing considering the knowledge base here. What's fun is to see when one will micro chip out, what pattern causes a serration to the edge, how to stabilize an edge, etc. This sport is getting more awesome every day......hahahahaha.

http://www.damasteel.biz/index.html Thought you guys might wanna look here as well.

Have fun.

Lynn

nice read, thanks to the contributors

Cheers
Ivo

ClassicShaving claim this razor is made of genuine wootz: http://www.classicshaving.com/catalo...551/977928.htm

Originally Posted by Kees

ClassicShaving claim this razor is made of genuine wootz: http://www.classicshaving.com/catalo...551/977928.htm

That's the photo I've been referring to. That is not wootz but pattern welded steel or laminated steel.

Here's one of the seminal references:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html

The pictures in the above article should give some good contrasting views of what wootz should look like.

Dennis has a very good picture of a wootz blade: http://www.brisa.fi/wootz3.html

Now, carefully examine the area of the razor, just above the polished edge, in the oval escutcheon photo. Those are laminations. Laminations do not appear in wootz blades, as a feature of the steel itself. There might be laminations because some wootz smith was welding several buttons together to make a larger blade, but it would hardly be necessary for a razor.

Wootz dendritic crystals are also more interrupted in appearance. You can't generally find the end of one line and follow it very far. But a laminated blade contains lines that are fairly easy to follow even if very small.

I stick by my contention, not wootz in the classic shaving photo.

Damn Mike you're about to blow my mind here! Good info


Justin

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

That's the photo I've been referring to. That is not wootz but pattern welded steel or laminated steel.

Here's one of the seminal references:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html

The pictures in the above article should give some good contrasting views of what wootz should look like.

Dennis has a very good picture of a wootz blade: http://www.brisa.fi/wootz3.html

Now, carefully examine the area of the razor, just above the polished edge, in the oval escutcheon photo. Those are laminations. Laminations do not appear in wootz blades, as a feature of the steel itself. There might be laminations because some wootz smith was welding several buttons together to make a larger blade, but it would hardly be necessary for a razor.

Wootz dendritic crystals are also more interrupted in appearance. You can't generally find the end of one line and follow it very far. But a laminated blade contains lines that are fairly easy to follow even if very small.

I stick by my contention, not wootz in the classic shaving photo.

I agree they look very different.

So would this Russian knifesmith ( http://wootz-online.com/ ) use the real stuff: ? To me his blades look more like the steel of the brisa site. Do you agree?

So would brisa be able to make a razor for Zomax?

Googling Bulat I found this: http://www.geocities.com/qasruf7/bulat.html


In clear pictures it shows the difference between bulat and Damascus.

I couldn't get the geocities link to work, but if it has pictures that show differences it will likely be helpful. I'll try it again later.

The Kirpichev site is interesting. The Russians make very fine knives. I believe that their processes for making their steels is compatible with the crucible smelting process that is also wootz. There may be minor differences there, but the steel pattern in their photos is consistent with dendritic crystal deformation from forging rather than laminations.

I can't be certain (even Pendray and Verhoeven only claim 95% certainty) without knowing some of the alloying composition and time/temperatures etc. But, as was said about TI, those are likely proprietary secrets.

I'd love to get to the TI shops or the Russians for a visit. I'd be able to learn a lot more on a shop tour.

I know the Roselli material is for sale. But I can get some (have some on my bench) here in the US easier. I had planned to take a crack at a couple razors, maybe I'll move up the timetable.