Thread: Damascus blade

Originally Posted by mparker762

Recently some new professor has written a paper claiming that the secret to genuine damascus are the carbon nanotubes embedded in it as determined by electron microscopy.

Just found this thread via a search so forgive me if I'm a bit OT or late to the game, but I thought I'd share this link from 2006 that I just came across: Carbon nanotubes: Saladin's secret weapon

Peter Paufler and colleagues at Dresden's Technical University discovered carbon nanotubes in the microstructure of a 17th century Damascus sabre. Intriguingly, the nanotubes could have encapsulated iron-carbide nanowires that might give clues to the mechanical strength and sharpness of these swords.

Pretty darned cool, if you ask me!

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

If you're basing your understanding of steels on the TI advertising, let's establish first, that it's advertising, and it pushes the boundaries of what IS known about old steel and the modern equivalents. Allow me to set some definitions that are really not interchangeable.

Wootz, or bulat, or pulad, (many names, but considered "true" damascus steel), is made in a crucible. That process is what gives the surface the "watered" appearance that is classic wootz. It is not folded, welded or layered. It could be, after all it is a bar of steel, but it's generally not. There are any number of people currently alive who can and do make this steel on a regular, but small production, basis. The best known is Alfred Pendray. Roselli, the company, also makes a crucible steel for their line of knives. Being a European supplier, no doubt, samples or purchases have made their way into production there.

Pattern welded steels, aka modern damascus (crudely misnamed), are layered and welded billets of two similar but different alloys containing elements enough to make an appearance contrast between the two parent materials. This has a much stronger layered appearance on the surface of the material. There are a lot of folks making this type of steel. It's simply easier to do and I would not be surprised at all to know that folks living around Thiers do this regularly.

Both types, wootz and PWS, can be cut, incised, drilled, scored or manipulated to produce patterns in the surface appearance.

Damasteel is a trade name of a particular type of patterned steel made in Europe by sintering different powdered alloys together to make a single bar. Mostly made of stainless steels, it has the surface appearance of layers without the risk of welding flaws and all the supposed advantages of stain resistance. It requiers a serious industrial basis to manufacture. It's not bad material either.

I've looked at pictures of the TI blades in question. As many as I could find on the internet this morning in a couple brief searches. Of the blades I reviewed, all are pattern welded, not wootz. This is not to say that someone at TI never made a wootz blade, but that none of the photos available for study are of wootz.

Now, given all that. The secret is in the heat treatment. TI certainly has that down well.

If given two blades, one of patterned material and one plain carbon steel, ground to similar edge profiles and bevels, with similar carbon content and heat treatment, there will be no functional difference between the two. The only difference is in the appearance and aesthetic of the blade. Sorry, we can't do the same with stainless', there are simply too many alloying differences to control.

Honing and daily use introduce a completely new set of variables that are beyond my ability to comment. But the above conditions provide a starting point for comparison.

In your experience which do you prefer to work with wootz or pattern welded? What do you like about their properties? The pros and cons?

Did wootz simply fall out of preference because pattern welding was easier process? I remember you once in forge IIRC that for shaving intent purposes given pattern welded versus mono steel of similar carbon content. It's same only difference being aesthetic values. Thanks

Did wootz simply fall out of preference because pattern welding was easier process?

It is safe to assume that wootz fell out of preference with the changing times and changing technology. The same can be said for many/most "ancient secrets".

With steel, and most things in life, i believe you will find different answers based on opinion, preference, and situation. Having not worked with wootz i cannot speak to it but steel is vastly situational.

Does a Howard Clark L6 bainite katana cut better than one made by famous Japanese smith of past or present? Not really but both the steel used and the heat treatment process does have it's benefits given it's intended purpose.
If you could put a great edge on a razor made of tungsten carbide, would it shave well? Maybe, but is it a practical steel to use for this application and what would be the down sides of using it?

These are subjects that could be, and are, talked about in endless debate.

Pattern welded steel, and Japanese swords, hold more aesthetic value when compared to monosteel. But If properly manufactured, their aren't any major differences between them. By saying this i do not mean to diminish swords or razors made by competent smiths by any means. I would love to own a Tim Zowada razor and i currently do own two nihonto (Antique Japanese sword). Both i consider art objects but the razor i would actually use for it's intended purpose.

Originally Posted by SiRed8

Did wootz simply fall out of preference because pattern welding was easier process? I remember you once in forge IIRC that for shaving intent purposes given pattern welded versus mono steel of similar carbon content. It's same only difference being aesthetic values. Thanks

Wootz fell out of fashion when the smiths of old couldn't make it anymore. Making wootz is highly dependent on the ores you start with. they have to contain the right combination of trace elements in order to form the internal structures that give it its amazing properties. IIRC that ore came from india?

At a certain point in time, the ore ran out. From that point onwards no more wootz could be made. After a while, the processes for making it were not passed on anymore, so that got lost after a generation or two.

What we call wootz now is probably a very accurate approximation of the ancient (non pattern welded) damascus but we still don't know if how we make it is the same as the smiths of old.

Oh and pattern welding gives no special properties to the steel, but wootz was vastly superior to anthing else of those days.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Oh and pattern welding gives no special properties to the steel, but wootz was vastly superior to anything else of those days.

What I find fascinating is that with all of the new technology we have today these legendary blades of old seemingly cannot be duplicated. For instance the swords of Toledo steel, the Samurai swords made hundreds of years ago and of course the Damascus of the Arab countries. How did those smiths, with none of the modern technology of pyrometers and such make these superlative blades ? Is it for sure that these 'legendary blades' are all they are cracked up to be or like King Arthur's Excalibur are they the stuff of legend ?

Originally Posted by mparker762

Wanna get a real damascus razor?

1) Acquire a damascus sword
2) Grind off everything that doesn't look like a razor

Finally, a common sense suggestion. I'll take s-words for $30, Trabek.

Some of the old Japanese swords are as good as anything that can be made today. This came from a lifetime of dedication to the art of swordmaking. I remember Mike saying somewhere that the tatara master (the guy in charge of the smelting process for tamahagane) can control and judge the temperature of the furnace to within 5 degrees... without using any technology whatsoever, just judging the color of the flames and the roaring sound of the air in the furnace.

And wootz is really on par with today's modern supersteels. IIRC, wootz performs significantly better than those supersteels in cutting tests, even today.

What also counts is this: people used their swords in battle and their lives depended on them. I guess that is also a factor. The smiths had plenty of feedback, and picky customers.

Keep in mind that the 'excellent' swords we are discussing here were reserved for the people with megabucks. Plain old 'good enough' swords were for the rest of the population.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

What I find fascinating is that with all of the new technology we have today these legendary blades of old seemingly cannot be duplicated. For instance the swords of Toledo steel, the Samurai swords made hundreds of years ago and of course the Damascus of the Arab countries. How did those smiths, with none of the modern technology of pyrometers and such make these superlative blades ? Is it for sure that these 'legendary blades' are all they are cracked up to be or like King Arthur's Excalibur are they the stuff of legend ?

It is the process, materials, and control of the smith that makes them legend. There are smiths in Japan that currently make quality swords that meet, and in some cases surpass swords of old. Time period, innovation, controllability of the steel in both forging and heat treatment, rarity of surviving examples, stories and legends all play their part in reality and legend.

Wootz was a "lost" art in the same fashion as utsuri was in Japanese swords. Both are puzzles of the past that have been re-born due to the study and perseverance of a handful of smiths.

Anyone interested in utsuri can google The Craft of the Japanese Sword for more information.

Originally Posted by ernestrome

I'd love a wootz razor. AFAIK no-one makes one. The TI and the maestro livi are both pattern welded, as Mr blue says.

I bet TI have never made a wootz blade.

I believe that some Livis, at least, are made from Damasteel. Not necessarily a bad thing - I have shaved with one each day for the last seven months and enjoyed it a lot.

Chris

Originally Posted by drmoss_ca

I believe that some Livis, at least, are made from Damasteel. Not necessarily a bad thing - I have shaved with one each day for the last seven months and enjoyed it a lot.

Chris

I just checked with Mike, and true wootz costs about 100$ per inch. Sadly, there are many disreputable sellers on the internet who call their stuff wootz and sell it for 20$ per inch.

In any case, at 100$ per inch you can easily see that for a razor to be made from real wootz, it would be about 1000$ just for the steel itself, never mind the scales and working it.