Thread: Wade & Butcher Comeback

Forgive any misunderstandings, Gabriel, but your post #58 came off, to me anyway, as quite rude and a direct affront to MichaelC and his endeavors. He was good enough to come here and state his business plan and seems to have truthfully done so. He has stated emphatically that 'Made in Sheffield' shall not apply. He also related that he shall be sourcing steel from Sweden. Honesty?

TBH, he has weathered much similar static over his Zulu hones in the past, yet they have quite the following these days.

My suggestion to take a 'wait and see' would be much better than slinging mud at something you, nor I, nor anyone else has physically seen, nor held in-hand.

BTW, most old Sheffield steel is not so hard. JMO

G-day!

Well that depends on how hard your biceps are

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Forgive any misunderstandings, Gabriel, but your post #58 came off, to me anyway, as quite rude and a direct affront to MichaelC and his endeavors. He was good enough to come here and state his business plan and seems to have truthfully done so. He has stated emphatically that 'Made in Sheffield' shall not apply. He also related that he shall be sourcing steel from Sweden. Honesty?

TBH, he has weathered much similar static over his Zulu hones in the past, yet they have quite the following these days.

My suggestion to take a 'wait and see' would be much better than slinging mud at something you, nor I, nor anyone else has physically seen, nor held in-hand.

BTW, most old Sheffield steel is not so hard. JMO

G-day!

Yes, was going to mention, Sheffield steel if anything is comparatively a much softer steel than the Japanese or Swiss razors by far....Sheffield steel is like silk....the edge that an Escher puts on my W&B's is ferkin' sublime...

Try some 20th century American steel!

I have an all original, pins, scales etc. , Wade & Butcher from the 1820's that was handed down by my grandfathers.
Will one of Michael's razors carry the same status in my collection, No,, at least not for another 200 years.

But,,,,

I can't wait to see the product when he is finished & if I like what I see,, I'll buy it.

Originally Posted by GabrielMartin

So to buy a new W&B razor that is not made in Sheffield, will be high, paying for an over priced imitation, that right??
Good luck on your venture, i signed up but I personally think if you had such a high regard for W&B you should have left it where it was.
I hope i am wrong but all i see is dollar signs in your eyes.

Originally Posted by GabrielMartin

Just stating a fact. There may be a lot of England in SA but SA aint England and it wont be Sheffield steel.
Sheffield steel is hard good stuff as i'm sure your well aware of.
In buying the W&B name, he is making "original" Wades more valuable which in turn making them harder to buy from sellers on Ebay and the likes that already ask a fortune from selling original Wades.
As to your comment on my not affording them, i have a few good original Wade & Butcher razors that have cost a fortune but a fortune differs from one to another.
I was referring to the working man being able to afford, after all, it was the working men that made the original W&B razors that this he is trying to revive but it simply wont be the same, nothing to it.
The blood, sweat, tears and even their lives went into making the razors.
So please, dont try to make me out to be the bad guy here, i am entitled to my opinion, i do wish him luck but his razors will be nothing like the originals. Period.

I'm just stating a fact too. Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion your post was inappropriate. I hesitated to post this but each time I read your posts, I felt like I just couldn't let it go.

I'm just at a loss for how to properly, yet somewhat politely, respond to this. Every single person who choses to attempt a business venture is, or at least should be, considering the likelihood of earning money from the venture. Otherwise what would be the point the business? I certainly would hope that Michael is planning to make money from this. Otherwise, he would be an idiot and he never has come across that way to me. Lynn has taken a lot of flak for profiting from SRP by setting up SRD. Did he do anything wrong? Of course not. Did he expect to make money from the endeavor? Of course he did! In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with anyone recognizing and capitalizing on a business opportunity. In this case of W&B, Michael thinks he can make some money on this. You are just going to have to get over the fact that he is not doing it simply as an altruistic endeavor just for the good of mankind.

Originally Posted by GabrielMartin

Just stating a fact. There may be a lot of England in SA but SA aint England and it wont be Sheffield steel.

Then again, a lot of "Sheffield steel" actually was Swedish steel. You are going to have to deal with the fact that we live on a planet, not a single country, and even the folks at W&B had the sense to buy steel from another country.

Originally Posted by GabrielMartin

In buying the W&B name, he is making "original" Wades more valuable

Really? How exactly would that be accomplished? Seriously, I have no idea how his decision to buy the name will have any impact on the value of the previously made razors. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Originally Posted by GabrielMartin

In buying the W&B name, he is making "original" Wades more valuable which in turn making them harder to buy from sellers on Ebay and the likes that already ask a fortune from selling original Wades.

I admit it, I've never studied economics. I had no interest in it in college and the approximately 2 weeks of it that I had in high school left me with an understanding of diminishing returns and pretty much nothing else. Despite my ignorance, I do understand that supply and demand determine price. There is a decent supply of W&B vintage razors and, due to our forums, a high demand. For that reason they command a premium price on ebay. That supply of vintage razors will be unaffected by any potential influx of Michael's razors. I cannot comprehend your logic in claiming that the addition of newly made W&B razors would in any way increase the price of those vintage razors. I would think if anything, the influx of new ones might mitigate some of the demand for the vintage razors, thereby causing the price of the vintage razors to go down, not up.

Originally Posted by GabrielMartin

I was referring to the working man being able to afford, after all, it was the working men that made the original W&B razors that this he is trying to revive but it simply wont be the same, nothing to it.

You know what? Quite often working men make stuff that they cannot afford to buy themselves. So what? Most of the men who made the original W&B razors are dead. Have you noticed that our cars are not the same as the cars made a hundred years ago? Things change. Really, other than rocks, most things do in fact change over time. Here's an example...razors used to all be wedges until someone figured out how to hollow grind them. It was considered to be an improvement. In other words, they were NOT THE SAME. The company adjusted and started making hollow ground razors even though they were not the same as what had been made before. Are you comprehending this? Hint...sometimes things that are not rocks do change, and this includes razors.

Here is a reality check for you. Michael and his partners are going to have to put a lot of work into this. I have no doubt that they are very aware of the fact that the bar is set very high and they are going to have to produce an excellent razor.

Originally Posted by GabrielMartin

his razors will be nothing like the originals. Period.

Michael already said that they will not be like the originals. He said that they will be better.

Period.

Hey Gabriel,

No worries man, I totally get your opinion and indeed you are welcome to it as there are likely many who feel as you do, and again it is completely understandable.

I must tell you, it has been something I've grappled with since having this idea 2 years ago.. To revive the brand or to leave it be.. it is a difficult decision - make no mistake.

But as I see it, there really is no way of bringing back the 'original' W&B... we have to all accept that William and Samuel Butcher are long past away... their Butchers' Wheel is now a heritage site, their workmen, their suppliers, have all passed away many years ago. Indeed their complete way of life and the market their company thrived in is no more.

What remains, however, is the name, the brand marks, their razor design legacy, and History's recording of that original company changing hands to to where it still lays in sleep to this day. And that alone is something to be quite excited about.

As Charles Turner said to me early on in our correspondences: "...Companies and names should live and breathe. They should certainly take a nod to their history then move ahead..."


I ask you all then, what is a Brand? If it can't be the physical hands that made the first product, and it can't be a building or a long-gone workforce, then what makes a brand what we hold it to be in our minds?
To me, it's an ethos. It's the philosophy that guides the How and Why of the products, and indeed it's beyond the products themselves as mere physical goods...

Like it or not, W&B razors were always essentially mass-produced implements for shaving (imperfectly crafted even on their most expensive models). You can bet William and Samuel Butcher did not have this nostalgic gloss over their company and products as we do - how could they? For them it was just a production business - successful, but a business like any other. But Time and Generations have evolved the Brand into something greater than that, something we are still actively discussing in 2016..

My simple aim is to marry that intangible ideal we have of 'Wade&Butcher', with physical goods that are more than deserving of carrying the name.


Regards,
- Mike

Originally Posted by GabrielMartin

So to buy a new W&B razor that is not made in Sheffield, will be high, paying for an over priced imitation, that right??
Good luck on your venture, i signed up but I personally think if you had such a high regard for W&B you should have left it where it was.
I hope i am wrong but all i see is dollar signs in your eyes.

Excellent! I got literally got tingles down my spine reading this.

One, you obviously have something against me, obviously i hit a nerve with you, two, i have my own business in not just restoration of original Wades but of razors, so yes, putting the price of those on Ebay, that are already a fortune to buy (on razors that have not even been restored) up because your God Michael, has bought the name and trademark. Maybe you cant see that due to the love haze around your head with the announcement of the new W&B.
You know nothing about me as i do with any of you and i am entitled to my opinion, if you really lovef Wade & Butcher you would leave as is. Yes, its good he's trying, it's good he's trying to revive the name but thats all it is at the end of the day.
I am actually surprised that he got away with advertising it here on this website, even in the shape of an announcement, where were the mods to remove it as they did mine when i was trying to get off the ground with my business??
The only thing you have taught me here is one rule for one, one for another.
Your pretty fast in putting me in my place for having an opinion, which dont really look good, anyway, good luck to the man in his venture which i have already said, oh thats right, you missed that part out aye? Even though my opinion is what it is i still wish him good luck and signed up for his newsletter. Did you not read that part?

You clearly

Its a bold move Michael flying the Wade & Butcher colors on your razor venture. I hope it works out for you and I hope it turns out to be a good move for the Wade & Butcher brand.