Thread: New Boker razors

Originally Posted by smythe

You are correct, but it’s not simply a test for improperly treated steel.

The razor grinder uses it to know when to stop grinding in that area… he will know the razor is thin enough to be honed/maintained easily by the consumer.
It’s the skill and experience of the grinder that makes the difference… too thin and the razor is useless… too thick and he needs to thin it some more until its just right.

I hope that explains

Ahhhh but what you don't understand is that a newly forged razor blank looks damn near like a razor. They run them through the double wheel setup and don't take anywhere near the metal off that you might think. that is why quarter hollow razors are hard to find. They have to start with a quarter hollow blank. For a full hollow ground razor they have a full hollow blank. This was mass production basically - not like the custom razors guys are making for us now.

Originally Posted by John Crowley

The problems usually occure in the hardening process. Many of the blades warp and some can be "popped" back to their original shape with a dead blow hammer hitting the blank on a leather pad. This usually works; however, sometimes there is a slight twist or bend in the blade that is not at all obvious. they can be made to look like a perfectly good razor and sold as such. This is not done purposfully - it is a QA mistake. Most of the time the twist or bend is so minute it isn't noticed until the first time you go to hone the new razor..

When I was a kid I was a bit of a vagabond and did a lot of traveling around. I worked in factories more than once and if anyone has worked in them they will have an idea the difference between a mass produced product and a custom. Back in the '60s they didn't pay by the hour but by the piece. I don't know how they did it in Solingen or Sheffield but I will bet it was the same deal. Not that there wasn't quality control but the worker was "getting down with it" if he wanted to make a living. If a worker didn't produce enough than he wasn't around too long. They would separate the wheat from the chaff. The motto of one outfit I worked for was,"If you can't do it you can't stay".

Back in the early eighties I was going into barber shops to see if any of the old fellows had straight razors that they would sell. The shave was something that many of them rarely did by then. I had a couple of different barbers show me a method to judge if a razor was a good one. They would hold the blade open in one hand and than take the forefinger and place it in the middle of the hollow ground blade to steady it and flick the point with their thumb. If the razor made a ringing noise it was a good one. If it was a flat sound it was just so so. Since then in practice I have found that this method of judging the razor's temper isn't accurate and one may be as good or better than the other regardless of the tone. This "test" is only doable on a full hollow.

Originally Posted by John Crowley

Ahhhh but what you don't understand is that a newly forged razor blank looks damn near like a razor. They run them through the double wheel setup and don't take anywhere near the metal off that you might think. that is why quarter hollow razors are hard to find. They have to start with a quarter hollow blank. For a full hollow ground razor they have a full hollow blank. This was mass production basically - not like the custom razors guys are making for us now.

Again, you are also right, however you forgot to mention that the distance between the “double wheel” setup is adjustable, and it’s adjustable because as both wheels wear, the diameters become smaller, as a consequence the distance between the wheels gets wider as it wears, so the razor grinder must adjust the distance between the wheels to grind each razor to the correct and consistent thickness… and he checks the thickness with what I call “Grinder Thumb Nail test”.

Doesn’t matter how much or how little steel "I think" he removes, he has to remove enough steel from the blank to get the blade to the desired form in that area.
It all comes down to how thick (or how thin) to be easily maintained by the consumer.

As for the blank looking damn near like a razor you are also correct, efficient manufacturing would dictate, the closer the forged blank is to the finished product, the less work need to be done by the “high skilled, high salaried” razor grinder.
In today’s forges, the dies more accurately follow the finished razor than yesterdays dies (and I suppose, not too close, because a thinly forged blank may warp during heat treatment).

Long before the German Full Hollow Grind, the old Sheffield grinders (who incidentally used “single wheel” to grind razors) would use the same test to determine the thickness of the blade near the edge… and also the same for re-grinding a razor... grinding that area to a certain thickness (or thinness) so it will be easily honed/maintained.

And therefore the test only proves that the razor was hollow ground. How useless.

Originally Posted by Leighton

And therefore the test only proves that the razor was hollow ground. How useless.

Oh no!, you got it all wrong, it does not prove the razor is hollow ground, and was never meant as such, a blind man can tell the difference between a hollow and a wedge without this “test”.

But I understand your frustration, unless you have a thorough understanding of hardened steel, its properties and knowledge of how straight razors were manufactured then and now, it is very difficult to wrap your head around it.

But take my word for it; the “test” is by no means useless.

No one man knows everything… so I will try to find, and post links to some of the books I have read and you too may enlighten yourself.

I would very much appreciate that.

I understand the basics of what your saying, I don't understand how messed up the razor would have to be in order for it to fail the test.

I can see the edge crumbling from being too hard, but how hard is too hard and exactly how much RC over the proscribed amount would that take? I think that holds the most promise

However, I just can't understand how a razor blank would escape the factory absolutely unhardened. And even if they did, it would be such a rare occurrence that the thumbnail test would be kind of silly. There are easier ways to tell the blade wasn't heat treated. If the blade wasn't heat treated, all the test would show was: it wasn't heat treated and the factory messed up really badly in letting it leave. Which, just shows poor QC, not a poor razor.

How low of a hardness level would it require for the blade to take a set? 10 RC below 60? 20? The larger the number, the more ****ing up the maker had to do to achieve such a result. Again, it just shows poor QC from the maker, rather than a poor razor per se.

Finally, I just can't see this test working for wedges. Does it work for wedges and what we call 1/4 hollow ground?