Thread: Why are Damascus steel razors so expensive?

Originally Posted by Toplin

that's just it. I don't like the "custom" look of the Damascus steel. I thought Damascus Steel had AMAZING shaving abilities above and beyond stainless steel and carbon steel.

Keep in mind that there are two very different steels that are called "damascus". The pattern-welded type, which is made from folding and forge-welding steels into layers, is what we've been discussing in this thread. The other type of damascus is the middle-eastern type made from wootz steel, which is the basis for many of the wild claims about damascus's cutting ability and durability. These historical claims have been attributed to pattern-welded damascus because many people are not aware that there is a difference in the two steels. Wootz damascus is a very different beast, and is still not very well understood even by research metallurgists who have spent their careers studying it.

It is possible that this type of damascus might have some magical shaving ability, I suppose. There have been razors made from reproduction wootz - Joe Chandler made three a year or so ago - but it's an open question how closely the reproduction wootz matches the genuine historical stuff. Personally I'm skeptical (edit: about any magical shaving properties of wootz damascus). Tamahagane has all sorts of mystical properties as well, and I've got two razors made from Takeda Tamahagane and they're very good shavers, but not eye-popping by any means. I've got some solingens that I picked up for ~$50 that shave as well or better.

The page for the TI 5/8 damascus razor at Classic Shaving claims that it's made from wootz, but Mike Blue (who has been participating in this thread, and who knows his way around both types of damascus) doesn't believe that it is, and having compared my two TI's to the real thing I don't believe it either.

Edit: the TI 5/8 damascus page at Classic Shaving no longer claims that it's made of wootz. It does however, say "When genuine Damascus Steel is used as a blade in shaving razors, the edge that can be attained is absolutely fantastic. Routine stropping will keep the edge fresh for years and the quality of the shave in terms of closeness and comfort is beyond description" which was a much stronger statement back when the page actually claimed the razor was genuine wootz damascus

Originally Posted by mparker762

Edit: the TI 5/8 damascus page at Classic Shaving no longer claims that it's made of wootz. It does however, say "When genuine Damascus Steel is used as a blade in shaving razors, the edge that can be attained is absolutely fantastic. Routine stropping will keep the edge fresh for years and the quality of the shave in terms of closeness and comfort is beyond description" which was a much stronger statement back when the page actually claimed the razor was genuine wootz damascus

Hmm, I think that's exactly what they are claiming. Here's the very first line of the description of the razor:
" The only Genuine 100% hand hammer forged Damascus Steel razors being make anywhere in Europe."
They don't say 'wootz', but they use the same 'genuine damascus steel' to describe the razor for sale, for the historical blurb, as well as for the abilities of a razor forged of such steel.
But I don't own or haven't ever tried one of these, and it looks like yours and thebigspendur's field tests don't quite support the promises in the marketing.

They used to specifically state it was made from wootz. Phrases like "hand hammered" can apply to pattern welded damascus, and their discussion of the mystical properties of genuine damascus is couched in general enough terms that it is clear they are not claiming that their razors actually possess such properties. But back when they actually said that the razor was made from wootz these were much stronger claims.

Originally Posted by mparker762

TI 5/8 damascus page at Classic Shaving no longer claims that it's made of wootz. It does however, say "When genuine Damascus Steel is used as a blade in shaving razors, the edge that can be attained is absolutely fantastic. Routine stropping will keep the edge fresh for years and the quality of the shave in terms of closeness and comfort is beyond description" which was a much stronger statement back when the page actually claimed the razor was genuine wootz damascus

well, this is why I wanted to buy it. Because of the above description

Originally Posted by mparker762

Keep in mind that there are two very different steels that are called "damascus". The pattern-welded type, which is made from folding and forge-welding steels into layers, is what we've been discussing in this thread. The other type of damascus is the middle-eastern type made from wootz steel, which is the basis for many of the wild claims about damascus's cutting ability and durability.
.......

MParker may have given us the best summary in a single post.

Others are clearly mixing old technology and modern technology
(and descriptions) which may be adding to the confusion.

Wootz is interesting and the best summary I could fine is here:

Wootz steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A key component of wootz is the micro carbides which are uncommon
in good razor steels (traces of tungsten and/or vanadium).

Modern Damascus mostly refer to pattern-welded types that
are are just beautiful.

If my information is correct Japanese swords were folded from iron
and with each fold and weld carbon was introduced building up
the carbon content and reducing the slag factor. In some cases
the carbon was introduced by setting the blade in straw then hammering
the weld tight.

Welding has also come a long way. Modern smiths use flux that
some of the old folks did not have. The old guys almost had to
burn the steel to get it to weld -- right at the harry edge.

Some of the more interesting modern pattern Damascus is generated by
explosive welding out in the desert. This drastically reduces the cost
of some very interesting patterned steel.

Then there are modern clad steel where the central layer has a
composition that is unsuitable for the entire blade. Often this center
is brittle/ fragile high carbon steel surrounded by a less brittle or less
costly iron or steel. At one time quality steel was expensive to the
point that it was often welded to less costly iron. Carpentry tools
and even single bevel Japanese sushi knives are good examples of
this.

Shun has taken advantage of modern welding and cladding by
cladding a central vg10 core with nicely patterned but tougher
outer layers. It really does work for kitchen knives. Shun uses
v10 for the inner core which has a lot of carbides in the end product.

As for modern Damascus and razors -- I do not know how well
they shave. Now if some one was willing to loan me a handful
of different makes and styles I would be happy to embark on a 25 year
study. My fee would be to keep two of the samples.

I agree with you that modern pattern welded steels can be quite beautiful. But I have a couple questions in return...

If my information is correct Japanese swords were folded from iron
and with each fold and weld carbon was introduced building up
the carbon content and reducing the slag factor. In some cases
the carbon was introduced by setting the blade in straw then hammering
the weld tight.

I'd like to know the source of this information. It is incorrect or you misunderstood it.

Some of the more interesting modern pattern Damascus is generated by explosive welding out in the desert. This drastically reduces the cost
of some very interesting patterned steel.

Explosive welding has been around since the 1960's. There are some exotic industrial processes for aircraft and missles, but I'd hardly call those inexpensive. I don't know of anyone who is routinely making pattern welded steels with this method. I'd like more information about who is doing this kind of welding on blade steels and how it reduces the costs over present ways of making PW steel.

I did find a reference to some stuff called XBOND. Apparently someone obtained or made a plate with titanium on one side and S30V on the other and made some knives from it. There really wasn't any need to make it that way when a hot isostatic press would do the job with a lot less excitement. But then, the seller would lose their key marketing sizzle.

As to the steel mills that are making clad materials where two layers of stainless surround a high carbon core, those are manufactured in a rolling mill at welding temperatures, not explosions and not the desert. The technology is well understood and the infrastructure is already paid for. It's much easier and less expensive to do it that way and has a better return the economic investment that doing it a harder way does not.

Neither way qualfies as pattern welded steel in the context that has been discussed in this thread. They are laminations, true, but not for appearance sake.

Frankly if I had access to a big factory with industrial rolling mills and forges, I would not be making PW steels the way I am now by hand.

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

If my information is correct Japanese swords were folded from iron
and with each fold and weld carbon was introduced building up
the carbon content..

I think it was the other way around. Tamahagane comes out of the tatara as a very porous almost spongelike bloom, and with extremely high carbon content as well around 1.5-2% IIRC, but the carbon isn't evenly dispersed, there are very high carbon areas and some low carbon areas in the bloom as well. The folding and welding process reduces the overall carbon content at each step while simultaneously getting rid of all the pores and forcing the carbon to migrate between the high and low carbon areas, equalizing it into a nice consistent chunk of very pure, very high quality steel. Mike Blue knows infinitely more about this than I do, since he's one of the few people that has actually made tamahagane starting from satetsu (magnetite sand) all the way through to the finished knife, but I think that by the time all the folding is done the carbon content is basically comparable to standard tool steels like O1 or 1095. My tamahagane razors shave about like my better O-1 razors, FWIW.

mparker762, did I understand you correctly to say that the Livi/Takeda razors are Tamahagane ? If so I am excited to hear that as I have one and it is a great shaver.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

mparker762, did I understand you correctly to say that the Livi/Takeda razors are Tamahagane ? If so I am excited to hear that as I have one and it is a great shaver.

Yes, they're tamahagane, at least the middle layer is - it's a san mai blade, of course, with the tamahagane sandwiched between something else that's less expensive and somewhat lower carbon content. One of mine uses simple HCS for the outer layers, the other uses a damascus pattern welded steel for the outer layers.

You should be able to see the layers in the tamahagane if you look closely. They're very tiny, but it should look like a faint, fine damascus pattern. The visibility of these lines is affected by the surface polish, so if you can't see them that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Mine are great shavers too. Not mystical or magical or necessarily the stuff of song and legend, but definitely great. I'm always looking for more, not necessarily because of their shaving properties, but just because they're such a cool bit of kit.