Thread: Why are Damascus steel razors so expensive?

Originally Posted by mparker762

Yes, they're tamahagane, at least the middle layer is - it's a san mai blade, of course, with the tamahagane sandwiched between something else that's less expensive and somewhat lower carbon content. One of mine uses simple HCS for the outer layers, the other uses a damascus pattern welded steel for the outer layers.

You should be able to see the layers in the tamahagane if you look closely. They're very tiny, but it should look like a faint, fine damascus pattern. The visibility of these lines is affected by the surface polish, so if you can't see them that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I didn't know that. I have a Livi/Takeda and love the way it shaves but had never heard or read that the center layer was Tamahagane.

Originally Posted by Bill S

I didn't know that. I have a Livi/Takeda and love the way it shaves but had never heard or read that the center layer was Tamahagane.

Hmm. Maybe we should ask Lynn. I thought the Takeda stuff that Livi was using was sanmai tamahagane, that he was one of the few guys outside of Japan that was authorized to use it. But I could certainly be wrong, maybe I misheard or am misinterpreting what I heard. It could be some other folded steel.

I was under the impression that the middle layer of the Takedas is either Blue or White steel but I really don't know that for certain. I should be talking with Lynn over the next few days, so I'll ask him (unless he chimes in here first).

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

I agree with you that modern pattern welded steels can be quite beautiful. But I have a couple questions in return...

I'd like to know the source of this information. It is incorrect or you misunderstood it.

Explosive welding has been around since the 1960's. There are some exotic industrial processes for aircraft and missles, but I'd hardly call those inexpensive. I don't know of anyone who is routinely making pattern welded steels with this method. I'd like more information about who is doing this kind of welding on blade steels and how it reduces the costs over present ways of making PW steel.

Thank you Mike.

You are so correct. My memory of this goes back to the 60's. Then
as now the building of great Japanese sword steel and swords was full
of confusion, secrets and misunderstanding. I only dabbled on the
edges of this stuff with my interest in knives. Buck stainless steel
knives were new and impossible to sharpen. Stainless was uncommon
and had very mixed reviews as a knife material.

This link found by looking for Tamahagane is illuminating.

What is Tamahagane or Traditional Japanese Steel ?

The link that got me to the above link and has some additional info.

Tamahagane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It has a bit that discusses how less ideal bits of the output of the smelting process are used which may be what my memory of adding carbon came from.
In the video there is a bit where the bits of steel are wrapped in paper and painted with clay to keep out the oxygen at one stage of the forging. Carbon management was and is key.

The warping of the blade first one way then in the reverse direction
is nicely visible in a video link in the first URL.

Another interesting component about Tamahagane is that it is smelted from black beach sand iron ore. While low in sulfur and phosphorous it might be high in Ti, W and other trace metals adding interesting character and carbides to the steel. I wonder how the black sand is and was collected.

All in all these ancient processes are a long way from what we commonly call Damascus.

Thanks again.

Cool Dovo Youtube video!

Tom, sadly I never visited the Wikipedia article, or the Samurai Sword Shop. The Sword shop article really only has one item wrong and that is the concept of oroshigane. It took me a long time to accumulate the understanding of concepts too.

Akira Kihara is the master smelter (murage) who operates the annual smelt in Shimane. I've met the man, and watched him work two smaller smelters called kodai. It is from him, via a good friend and professor at the Univ. of MN, that I derived my methods for making steel. One day soon, i hope to get to Japan again to attend another smelt.

There are two fairly common ways, both labor intensive, to separate the ore from the sands. A magnet is fairly efficient. Another method that works is using gravity and inertia, much like panning for gold. You want the heavier ore to settle out of a slurry.

I've been disgruntled at the misuse of the term Damascus, but it's hard to deal with common usage. The ideas expressed are simplified in the one word, but it's not necessarily the most accurate. This is where the education of customers is so important. I get to help with that by keeping the traditional methods alive, even while getting to use modern means as well.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Tom, sadly I never visited the Wikipedia article, or the Samurai Sword Shop. The Sword shop article really only has one item wrong and that is the concept of oroshigane. It took me a long time to accumulate the understanding of concepts too.

Akira Kihara is the master smelter (murage) who operates the annual smelt in Shimane. I've met the man, and watched him work two smaller smelters called kodai. It is from him, via a good friend and professor at the Univ. of MN, that I derived my methods for making steel. One day soon, i hope to get to Japan again to attend another smelt.

There are two fairly common ways, both labor intensive, to separate the ore from the sands. A magnet is fairly efficient. Another method that works is using gravity and inertia, much like panning for gold. You want the heavier ore to settle out of a slurry.

I've been disgruntled at the misuse of the term Damascus, but it's hard to deal with common usage. The ideas expressed are simplified in the one word, but it's not necessarily the most accurate. This is where the education of customers is so important. I get to help with that by keeping the traditional methods alive, even while getting to use modern means as well.

This has been a very educational exchange for me.

Thank you for your input and time.

In looking further I found... Hitachi has a set of web pages devoted to the history of steel in Japan. Here is a link to the first in the series.

Tale of the Tatara : About Tatara

Of interest to me is there are two types of black sand from two geologic terrains used in old time Japanese steel making to different ends. The migration and evolution of smelting, forging and importing of iron and steel are a wonderful read. I find it fascinating how nature provides specific sets of minerals and materials and then what we do with them both in history and in modern times.

Do bring eye protection and a camera when you visit the annual smelt in Shimane. The comments about master murage giving their sight to the steel is interesting.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread. "Damascus" and "pattern-welded" steels have been a subject of interest for me and this has really set the record straight about a lot of misconceptions I've had about the two.

thanks!

For those who have never seen it, this is a fascinating article on Wootz and the role of vanadium.

Chris

Originally Posted by mparker762

Or somebody would figure out a more cost-effective way to make it, or it would be valued the same way art is valued, purely on its aesthetic qualities with no real consideration for the labor involved; I suspect that it is already valued as art btw, and the reason labor is such an imperfect proxy for value is because labor is really a rough proxy for the artistic quality of the resulting steel, and because we have such a poor knowledge of the labor that goes into a razor - Zowada doesn't put the workbill next to the price tag on his razors on the Classic Shaving website; we're left to infer the labor and material inputs from the asking price, which is the complete reverse of your argument. What we do have pretty good knowledge about is the aesthetics of the razor - Classic Shaving may skip the workbills but they make sure to put up nice large photos of the razors, which implies that Classic believes that purchasing decisions are being made based on artistic considerations, *not* labor calculations, not even approximately based on labor calculations, though it is possible that Classic Shaving is wrong about this, and they could charge more for the razors if their customers really knew what it took to make that $2100 Zowada damascus razor versus that $700 TI damascus razor.

Edit: split into two sentences.

Actually, what you are saying is only ONE of the theories of price, and cannot be regarded as facts. The one that stresses demand is the "neo-classic" view, which is mostly endorsed by right-wing. The second one is more close to the "added-value" theory of Marx, which is mostly supported by left. And, I think none of the theories works well in the case of collectable items, as there exists no equilibrium price even for a particular item.