Thread: Japanese straight questions

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

The Japanese plane and razor thread wasn't supposed to be a comparison as such. Because the manner in which a Japanese plane works is very similar to the way a Japanese razor works, I thought due to it's size and all, I could better give an understandable explanation of how/why you don't shave with the back of the razor.

There doesn't seem to be any real clear way to explain how/why a Japanese razor works the way it does. Even with my explanation, and Jim's video, I still get asked on average three times a week, "which side goes against the face?" or "Which is the back/front of a Japanese straight?".

You shave with the front of the razor which is the side that has no stamps, to your face. Some say you can shave with the back of the razor, which is quite inaccurate. The only real way you are going to get the back of the razor to shave you is with a frankenrazor which has been incorrectly honed. Using the back of the razor if not a frankenrazor will in all likeliness result in a lot of discomfort.

With regard to the question/statement about stamps being in the front of Japanese hones. That is really the only place to put the stamps. You can't exactly stamp the rough sides or base of a hone, because the stamps wouldn't take so well, and would look rather unsightly.

I really enjoyed your plane post, up until then I had only hearsay to go on, and I agree it is expert testimony but I cant say it is definitive IMO, I have a hard time with thats just the way it is type reasoning. Your post gave lots more detail on why you have come to the conclusions you have, as to front, back and their relationship to the face.

Perhaps if we could work our way through this discussion you and JimR might actually get to relax for a bit. I am sure that I share some reservations that are similar to others who continually seek you guys and your informative advice. I didnt want a discussion on the art of shaving with a Jstr8 or I would of posted in the shaving section, I want to discuss these razors, which truly are a work of art. Perhaps I am going too far, if it works why mess with it, right. But the question that has ruled my life for better or worse is why. Such as why is the stamped side not the front but the back, that is why I liked your post so much. I am going to post some pics to help me out, and may give you guys something to correct me on.

The first is one we are all familiar with, when we first open the box. I would consider the face presented as the front and the side it sits on the back.

The second and third, grabbing the razor with the most comfortable grip. It seems to me with this grip I could do a WTG on every part of my face comfortably, without contorting. Except for the shaving with the ura part.

The fourth is a picture of said contorted grip that is needed to twist the omote side around to shave with. It seems to me that if they wanted that side against the face they could've made it so you could grab the razor comfortably and still get the omote side to the face, seems a left handed style held in the right hand would be close to this, except for the finger dent would have to be changed to the opposite side. Simple fixes, so why didnt/havent they?

The fifth is just a picture of the grind for reference, and the sixth is a diagram of a traditional japanese knife and the grind is similar to our Jstr8s. Notice how the right handed version looks like our razors with the ura side to the inside, (a) i think. I am sure I could twist one of those around like we do with the Jstr8s and it would still cut, might even be gentler against our skin but it is not the way the knife is designed to work. The plane is similar too and does give a different POV than does the the knife example, which one is the closer to the Jstr8s?

These are the points where I have the most trouble with the ura=back POV. It just doesnt seem to me that the original blacksmith when making a right handed razor would make one that you hold with your right hand then have to twist your arm around to make it work proper, when they could just as easily make it so you could hold it comfortably and still get the omote to the face and in a position to shave WTG on all areas. I am sure I am turning a mole hill into a mountain, but I have too much respect for japanese craftmanship to think that they purposely made something more difficult than needed.

Can you please explain why only a frankenstein razor would be able to shave on the ura side. What modification would have to be made to allow it to work that way?

The Jnat analogy was wrong, i agree, please show me where the above points are wrong so I can move on. I hate when a why gets into my head and I cant get it out, especially when its a trivial why. Thanks for your time.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I can't really explain it other than I tried it a few times a long time ago and there was only tugging and discomfort. Changing angles made no difference whatsoever. Several other people have made the same observation.

The modification, I think of is excessive honing on the back of the razor, making it more like a western straight than a Japanese one. This would make both sides of the razor usable, and ultimately making it a franken razor. If you ever seen a razor with a lot of hone wear on the back of a Japanese razor, you'll understand how ugly it looks and why it deserves the title "Franken-razor" a name given by another member, not my term.

That description of a franken razor sounds just like the one I originally contacted you about.

I was the one who originally coined the term frankenrazor and as I recall it was a general term referring to when you hone a razor in such a way as to change its intended geometry.

As far as which side to use I'm not getting involved in that discussion again.

guys, i think the answer is in the Katana

look how a Katana is made and used, how it is stamped and hold in hand. If u do so you will understand why Kamisori are how they are.

It is often stressed out that Kamisori were made as a side business by Katana makers. After reseraching on google using "ura" and "omote" i found a site that pictures a lot of katana and their ura and omote side.
From what i understand, when a katana is held, the stamps are facing the samurai holding the katana. And the omote is shown to the exterior. Exactly as a kamisori BEFORE you bend your elbow and curl your wrist to apply the omote to your right cheek let's say.
And if you use it as a barber, it's even more obvious. If you use a kamisori against someone else face, it's naturally the omote that is presenting to the client (facing the barber). Try to use the ura against someone else face is putting you in a strange position and weird angle. -with downward strokes-

Again, when holding a katana or a kamisori up, you naturally have the Ura facing you. Ura will always face your body and Omote facing the outside, when used against someone else.
Turning to blade toward you makes everything more complicated.
That's why the better way to say it is not to say that the Ura should face the holder but to say that the Omote should face what is to be cut.

hope i made some sens out of my mind.
thank you

(Omote of this blade to be facing what is to be cut!)

Thanks LesPoils, your post definitely makes sense to me, it is similar to my point above about the right handed japanese knife profile. The ura goes against the thing being cut from(face), and the omote faces the thing being removed(whiskers). The thing I notice right off is when aproaching your face with the ura side it pretty much automatically sets the right angle, with the omote side the user has to adjust the hold to get the right angle. To me its kind of like occams razor, the less complicated solution is usually the right one.

Originally Posted by Jasongreat

Thanks LesPoils, your post definitely makes sense to me, it is similar to my point above about the right handed japanese knife profile. The ura goes against the thing being cut from(face), and the omote faces the thing being removed(whiskers). The thing I notice right off is when aproaching your face with the ura side it pretty much automatically sets the right angle, with the omote side the user has to adjust the hold to get the right angle. To me its kind of like occams razor, the less complicated solution is usually the right one.

You are right Jason, BUT


there is always a but......
what u say is true, for general asymetric bevel blade use. But kamisori has a twist.
A twist in your wrist, and if mixes all of us.

When you say the Ura is facing what is TO BE CUT, and the Omote, facing what is REMOVED, you are right. Let's take a block of maguro. You put it in front of you and you take your Katana in your hand. When you slice the tuna the ura is facing you (and the main part of the tuna) and the omote is facing the little piece of tuna that is going to be taken out from the block. So what u say is right.

Problems happen when you are turning the blade toward yourself. now it's not the same deal. The omote will facing your skin. The ura will never touch your face.
Totally the opposite of earlier where we saw that the ura was facing the block of tuna (or your face in the analogy).
And that is because you turned the blade, you twisted it. You still holding it the same way, but instead of using the blade toward the exterior (wich is almost ALWAYS the use for a blade) you using it toward the interior, toward itself. And it's only with kamisori and seppuku that you can encounter such a weird use for a blade in japanese culture.

You lost me Les. The ura and omote of nihonto(japanese swords) are determined by how one is worn. (It depends perhaps but...)They are signed on the omote. Some swords are worn edge down, others edge up and so are signed on opposite sides so the mei is public side-not against the wearer's body.

Originally Posted by LesPoils

guys, i think the answer is in the Katana.

look how a Katana is made and used, how it is stamped and hold in hand. If u do so you will understand why Kamisori are how they are.

It is often stressed out that Kamisori were made as a side business by Katana makers. After reseraching on google using "ura" and "omote" i found a site that pictures a lot of katana and their ura and omote side.
From what i understand, when a katana is held, the stamps are facing the samurai holding the katana. And the omote is shown to the exterior. Exactly as a kamisori BEFORE you bend your elbow and curl your wrist to apply the omote to your right cheek let's say.
And if you use it as a barber, it's even more obvious. If you use a kamisori against someone else face, it's naturally the omote that is presenting to the client (facing the barber). Try to use the ura against someone else face is putting you in a strange position and weird angle. -with downward strokes-

Again, when holding a katana or a kamisori up, you naturally have the Ura facing you. Ura will always face your body and Omote facing the outside, when used against someone else.
Turning to blade toward you makes everything more complicated.
That's why the better way to say it is not to say that the Ura should face the holder but to say that the Omote should face what is to be cut.

hope i made some sens out of my mind.
thank you

(Omote of this blade to be facing what is to be cut!)

Originally Posted by kevint

You lost me Les. The ura and omote of nihonto(japanese swords) are determined by how one is worn. (It depends perhaps but...)They are signed on the omote. Some swords are worn edge down, others edge up and so are signed on opposite sides so the mei is public side-not against the wearer's body.

thanks Kevin

you are helping me understanding this ura/omote thing.

So, can we say that the stamp (mei) is always (or mostly) on the public side ? (i know there are many type of stamps also, and some blade stamped on the two sides)

thank you

Originally Posted by LesPoils

thanks Kevin

you are helping me understanding this ura/omote thing.

So, can we say that the stamp (mei) is always (or mostly) on the public side ? (i know there are many type of stamps also, and some blade stamped on the two sides)

thank you

swords; yes(you see some tachi were later made into uchigatana- being worn edge up they are signed on what is now the ura-even though orginally it was the omote)

If you consider a plane iron- these are typically stamped on the ura-unless it is a reverse edge (Kaeshi-ba).

Thanks JimR, Old_School and other SRP members for all the information that you guys have shared about Japanese razors.

I am still confused and my confusion leads me to a dumb question. In his youtube video, JimR mentions Ura as stamped side and Omote (flat-side) as the face side. Now when I looked at a picture of a Kanetake razor on Old_School's website, it appears that the the stamped side is flat. Also, for an Iwasaki razor, it appears that the stamped side is flat. So, I guess it would be easier for me to understand in terms of hollow and wedge (flat) sides rather than stamped and unstamped sides when shaving.

Thanks,
Sachin