Thread: Henckels real or fake?

After buying, selling, restoring, collecting, and shaving with Henckels straight razors for many years, I was very suspicious as to the authenticity of this razor in question, (shown in photos below). After contacting Robert Wuster in the Henckels Consumer Relations Department located in Hawthorn, New York, I was then forwarded to Johann Thordis who gave me a similar response compared to the responses posted above:


After searching in our archives, I can give you the following information:


In a catalog from 1966 I found a logo bar, in which even the ILLING (one man) was shown. (see pdf enclosed)
I know, that ZWILLING has used also the DRILLING (3 men) as a logo.
A handwritten note, which I found, suggests that the ILLING (a man) was used from 1966 as a logo. But I could not find any information about why and how long the logos have been used.

Therefore I believe (but cannot say with sureness), that these items are legitimate.

Hope, that I could answer your question.

Kind regards
Thordis.




After receiving this response, I asked him if there was anyone still employed with Henckels who could give me a certain answer as to whether or not this razor is a genuine Henckels razor. I was then forwarded to the Henckels Legal Department, also located in Solingen, Germany, as they have all the old catalogs known to exists, and could research this razor further. I have waited for over 2 months for the response that I finally received today which also included 3 attachments from the Henckels archives. I will be attaching those to this post also. As you will see, this response claims that the black scales/handle on this one man Henckels razor is not a genuine Henckels handle and was not made by Henckels, but was made by someone else, which would be a trademark infringement back then, and now. The model number 10078 1/2 marked on the razor in question could also not be confirmed with certainty, however their catalogs show models 10078-517 & 10072-520.
Based on all of this evidence, we may never know whether or not this razor is genuine, therefore we are all basically left to draw our own conclusion as to whether or not this razor is authentic. For me personally, seeing as how the handle is NOT authentic, and this particular model # razor could not be located in any of Henckels old records, then there is too much suspicion surrounding this razor for me to invest in it.

The exact response I received today from Henckels Legal Department in Solingen, Germany:

After investigating this case once more, we may have an answer to your question. There have been “Straight Razors“ produced by Henckels and marked with the “ILLING“ (only one of the twins). We could trace the route back to 1968. As an attachment you find an old catalogue showing those razors model 10078-517 and 10072-520. The razor you found during your investigation shows model “10078“ on the blade, as can be seen on the photos. The model may not be 100% correct but makes it possible that before 1968 these razor models have been produced. As you can see from the old advertisement, “HENCKELS” has also used a triplet and even a quadruplet as a trademark. However, those may not be found nowadays.



Also we found an old manual for a dry shaver named „ILLING“ and labeled with the “ILLING”, also dating back to the 60s or early 70s. Please find the manual annexed to this mail.



The third attachment contains an old order list for seeds, dated spring 1955. The front page contains the “ILLING” as a trademark.



As a result we can say that the “ILLING” symbol was well used back in the 50s and also used for razors back to at least 1968.



In older times, dating back to about 1887 “Henckels” has also sold the blades separately, not only for razors but also for kitchen knifes. So it is possible, that the blade actually is an authentic “Henckels” dating back to the 50s or even earlier, but the handle has been manufactured by someone else. Needless to say using the “ILLING” by someone else for the handle would have been a trademark infringement back in the 50s as well as today.



Referring to the razor your question was actually about we must say that we cannot be completely sure if it is authentic or not. From that point of view, we would rather say that the razor you found really is an authentic “10078” more than a counterfeit.



I hope we were able to help you in this case and you enjoy the old catalogues we annexed to this mail. We would like to thank you for your interest in Henckels razors. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/ Best regards

ZWILLING J.A. Henckels AG

i. A . Markus Kämmerling

Due to the forum's policy on file sizes I CAN NOT attach the files to this thread, however I will post links below that will take you to these files at Adobe. It may take a minute or so to open each document. The first link if the most important document because it shows catalog pages of the Henckels 10078 517 Straight razor with a photo.

Catalog pages of Henckels One Man Straight Razor model #10078-517 & razor Model #10072-520:
Link #1:https://acrobat.com/#d=TD69BW61refrFQyx1x9bTw

Link#2:https://acrobat.com/#d=F0eW0Qe5tyOSGGAhwNfi1Q

Link #3:https://acrobat.com/#d=kRWW3F-KH-3pMotSq6E9FQ

Looks to me like 'all the Solingen logos' for Henckels needs a revision - or two...

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by RazorTalkin

After buying, selling, restoring, collecting, and shaving with Henckels straight razors for many years, I was very suspicious as to the authenticity of this razor in question, (shown in photos below). After contacting Robert Wuster in the Henckels Consumer Relations Department located in Hawthorn, New York, I was then forwarded to Johann Thordis who gave me a similar response compared to the responses posted above:


After searching in our archives, I can give you the following information:


In a catalog from 1966 I found a logo bar, in which even the ILLING (one man) was shown. (see pdf enclosed)
I know, that ZWILLING has used also the DRILLING (3 men) as a logo.
A handwritten note, which I found, suggests that the ILLING (a man) was used from 1966 as a logo. But I could not find any information about why and how long the logos have been used.

Therefore I believe (but cannot say with sureness), that these items are legitimate.

Hope, that I could answer your question.

Kind regards
Thordis.




After receiving this response, I asked him if there was anyone still employed with Henckels who could give me a certain answer as to whether or not this razor is a genuine Henckels razor. I was then forwarded to the Henckels Legal Department, also located in Solingen, Germany, as they have all the old catalogs known to exists, and could research this razor further. I have waited for over 2 months for the response that I finally received today which also included 3 attachments from the Henckels archives. I will be attaching those to this post also. As you will see, this response claims that the black scales/handle on this one man Henckels razor is not a genuine Henckels handle and was not made by Henckels, but was made by someone else, which would be a trademark infringement back then, and now. The model number 10078 1/2 marked on the razor in question could also not be confirmed with certainty, however their catalogs show models 10078-517 & 10072-520.
Based on all of this evidence, we may never know whether or not this razor is genuine, therefore we are all basically left to draw our own conclusion as to whether or not this razor is authentic. For me personally, seeing as how the handle is NOT authentic, and this particular model # razor could not be located in any of Henckels old records, then there is too much suspicion surrounding this razor for me to invest in it.

The exact response I received today from Henckels Legal Department in Solingen, Germany:

After investigating this case once more, we may have an answer to your question. There have been “Straight Razors“ produced by Henckels and marked with the “ILLING“ (only one of the twins). We could trace the route back to 1968. As an attachment you find an old catalogue showing those razors model 10078-517 and 10072-520. The razor you found during your investigation shows model “10078“ on the blade, as can be seen on the photos. The model may not be 100% correct but makes it possible that before 1968 these razor models have been produced. As you can see from the old advertisement, “HENCKELS” has also used a triplet and even a quadruplet as a trademark. However, those may not be found nowadays.



Also we found an old manual for a dry shaver named „ILLING“ and labeled with the “ILLING”, also dating back to the 60s or early 70s. Please find the manual annexed to this mail.



The third attachment contains an old order list for seeds, dated spring 1955. The front page contains the “ILLING” as a trademark.



As a result we can say that the “ILLING” symbol was well used back in the 50s and also used for razors back to at least 1968.



In older times, dating back to about 1887 “Henckels” has also sold the blades separately, not only for razors but also for kitchen knifes. So it is possible, that the blade actually is an authentic “Henckels” dating back to the 50s or even earlier, but the handle has been manufactured by someone else. Needless to say using the “ILLING” by someone else for the handle would have been a trademark infringement back in the 50s as well as today.



Referring to the razor your question was actually about we must say that we cannot be completely sure if it is authentic or not. From that point of view, we would rather say that the razor you found really is an authentic “10078” more than a counterfeit.



I hope we were able to help you in this case and you enjoy the old catalogues we annexed to this mail. We would like to thank you for your interest in Henckels razors. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/ Best regards

ZWILLING J.A. Henckels AG

i. A . Markus Kämmerling

Due to the forum's policy on file sizes I CAN NOT attach the files to this thread, however I will post links below that will take you to these files at Adobe. It may take a minute or so to open each document. The first link if the most important document because it shows catalog pages of the Henckels 10078 517 Straight razor with a photo.

Catalog pages of Henckels One Man Straight Razor model #10078-517 & razor Model #10072-520:
Link #1:https://acrobat.com/#d=TD69BW61refrFQyx1x9bTw

Link#2:https://acrobat.com/#d=F0eW0Qe5tyOSGGAhwNfi1Q

Link #3:https://acrobat.com/#d=kRWW3F-KH-3pMotSq6E9FQ

I was just going to add that the bottom spacer pin is not centered, and is located very high on the scales in comparison to original factory produced razors.
Also it seems that these scales are a "generic" size and the blade tip is 2/8 or so short of the spacer/plastic filler.
My questions over the scales are now thoroughly answered
That is some amazing sleuth work RazorTalkin.
Thanks for your efforts and sharing with us :

I would not have guessed that the singleman "illing" logo was authentic, but now we know that they were produced by Henckels at least.
So they likely answer to this riddle is that the razor is original and the scales are non-original?

Very interesting: being a great fan of Zwilling blades it's nice to learn about various logo's.

Regards, Jazor

Knowing this I think I will give this one a try. If I still smoked at todays prices for Marlboughs I could pay for the razor in a couple or three days.

I recently bought and sold one with the ILLING logo. Hope it's not a knockoff!

@ Jacquers: looks legit to me. See info above by RazorTalkin.

Kindest regards, Jazor