Thread: Smooth Vs. Sharp

Originally Posted by Gibbs

This was a good read!! Just how fine is the Frictionite 00 2 sided stone I have (comes in a green cloth bag)?

NOW .... are there any particular steels that hold up better to getting that finest edge, such as 304 Stainless Steel, or anything else they have developed in the straight razors that can receive and hold an edge without folding over?

I think you will find that razors made with Swedish steel and special Japanese Steel called TAMAHAGANE, will hold their edges longer and provide a lasting keen edge. That has been my experience with the Swedish and Japanese razors I own. Each has been finished on 20K glass plates, and stropped to finish. Each razor now has about 10 shaves each and they feel as good or slightly better than just after they were honed.

What is a 20k glass plate?

Originally Posted by Gibbs

This was a good read!! Just how fine is the Frictionite 00 2 sided stone I have (comes in a green cloth bag)?

NOW .... are there any particular steels that hold up better to getting that finest edge, such as 304 Stainless Steel, or anything else they have developed in the straight razors that can receive and hold an edge without folding over?

Short answer - yes.

Different steels have different levels of spring and hardness so they'll respond in a slightly different manner to the stresses they're put under. But a lot also depends on how that steel is tempered.

I think smooth vs sharp can be a very important distinction. For example the Shapton pro/kuromaku 12K stone. My very first edge I just wanted to max it out and see what it could do. It was certainly sharp, but keeping the blade from planing off skin was a bit tricky. It's a biting edge that still hasn't lost it's tooth. The second edge I was just looking to get shaving sharp and went by the recommendations of a user here that's got more time with Shapton stones than I do honing in general. Far fewer strokes and the edge was both sharp and smooth.

Which kind of makes me wonder, up to that point I had always gotten a sharp edge from synthetics but not so great in the smooth department. And that is a large part of why I enjoy naturals, the ones capable of producing an adequately sharp blade by and large tend to also feel much smoother. I wonder if the slow pace or way that they abrade steel doesn't simply make it harder to shoot passed that tipping point into the realm of very sharp and rather uncomfortable. More experimentation needed.

Originally Posted by Marshal

Short answer - yes.

Different steels have different levels of spring and hardness so they'll respond in a slightly different manner to the stresses they're put under. But a lot also depends on how that steel is tempered.

I think smooth vs sharp can be a very important distinction. For example the Shapton pro/kuromaku 12K stone. My very first edge I just wanted to max it out and see what it could do. It was certainly sharp, but keeping the blade from planing off skin was a bit tricky. It's a biting edge that still hasn't lost it's tooth. The second edge I was just looking to get shaving sharp and went by the recommendations of a user here that's got more time with Shapton stones than I do honing in general. Far fewer strokes and the edge was both sharp and smooth.

Which kind of makes me wonder, up to that point I had always gotten a sharp edge from synthetics but not so great in the smooth department. And that is a large part of why I enjoy naturals, the ones capable of producing an adequately sharp blade by and large tend to also feel much smoother. I wonder if the slow pace or way that they abrade steel doesn't simply make it harder to shoot passed that tipping point into the realm of very sharp and rather uncomfortable. More experimentation needed.

I have shaved with an edge that was later to be found to have micro chips. It was a beautiful shave. Not harsh. I have also shaved with an edge where the bevel is not shiny or smooth. Another great shave. I believe that what people consider smooth is actually a higher level of sharp. I don't think sharp stops happening at a certain level and then smooth starts. I believe as jimbo stated above that the edge continues to get sharper and cuts better which leaves a less irritated face. Even if that is only a very small difference in microns it translates to a very noticeable difference in practice. This is just my opinion and I may be in the minority here but nothing new there.

I was thinking more in terms of what Gugi stated. Which doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with you or Jimbo, just that in this case I think I found that point where the razor's edge was maxed out, the edge fractured, and became less comfortable than it could have been. In a general sense sharper does cut better, and with less pressure & better blade angle translates to smoother shave with less irritation. But edges can also get over-worked and friable as a result of too much time on the stones. Like Glen said, .47-.37 Micron at the apex is about all you're getting out of most steels. Push much further and it'll become brittle and snap away.

I've got a Germania Cutlery Works razor that I've been stropping on .5 Crox, .25 CBN, and .1 FeOx before the shave. It's actually began to tug as much as it cuts, but under a 30X loupe I can't see and problem with the edge. No shiny flat spots, micro chips that are visible with a loupe or any of that fun stuff. I think the poor thing is just over worked and needs to be backed down a tick.

I see what you're saying.

Serrated Knives are just as sharp as Non-Serrated knives
, Sharp doesn't always mean Smooth Just look at the concept in the Macro rather then the Micro and it makes more sense..

Just because the bevels meet in a small tiny sub-micron edge does not mean it must be smooth, that same edge can still be toothy and harsh..

The Keenness of the edge must be there, as well as the Evenness of the edge to make for a smooth feeling on the face. Yes, this "Should" happen together at the same time in a perfect honing setting but it doesn't always..

Speaking of tugging. I notice that on my Wacker (and some others) after honing it a bit and trying to shave I get a sort of "skipping or "chatter" effect" when drawing down the side of my face. I shave a LOT with DE using either vintage Gillette or one of my Mekur razors and the DE blades seem to just glide down my face with nary any tugging or pulling nor "chatter" Not sure how they got those DE blades so sharp, but seems like if a machine can make a DE that sharp, then why can't I make my straights just as sharp?

BTW I did find a Daishi Kamisori Iron Sand Tamahagane RK Japanese Straight Razor for not that much money. I understand they are a little on the difficult side to find? Is that a real "Tamahagne"?

I always prefer sharp over smooth. They're not mutually exclusive, however. I've had a sharp/smooth shave, a sharp/not smooth, a dull(ish) smooth and a dull (ish) scratchy shave.


I think the only constant is that at a certain point of dullness (not sharpness?) no amount of "smoothness" will work.

Originally Posted by Utopian

What is a 20k glass plate?

Suehiro Gokumyo 20K