Thread: Classifieds policy change

I gotta tell you guys, I'm lovin' this post. You guys made my night. I have to go to work tomorrow, and I have a smile on my face. You Euro Mods crack me up...

Originally Posted by Leighton

So the other mods can see the "ban button" ability as either lit up and ready to fire, or not lit up and the mod is being punished?

Actually the more correct description would be 'shrinkage'....

See, now I'll probably get in trouble for leaking confidential information... the stuff I go for you guys! Let me try to contain the damage - for the record I have never seen Bruno and Doc without their ban buttons fully.... uhm charged!

Originally Posted by Leighton

I'm sorry for asking this again, but I don't like opaque "I am the king and I'll decide when I decide" rules. I like to know in general what is acceptable advertising/honing and what isn't. I understand this is your website, but its also a community, and communities generally have written laws and rules that people are to obey. Thus, we know if we have violated a policy or not.

In my experience, people either do the right thing without causing much fuss, or they want to have a detailed list of requirements to come as close to breaking the rules as possible without actually breaking them.

For example, despite the lack of rules in the conversation, that forum seems to chug along fine without much problems. Even though I have no written rules to tell me when I can or cannot ban someone, very few people actually get banned. And when I do ban someone, they themselves know fully well they had it coming to them, and they usually thank me for not hitting too hard.

So in the case of clasifieds.... We encourage people to work things out among themselves. But if that doesn't work, and we get complaints from multiple people... then we will look at the situation, and do whatever we think is best. The classifieds is a community resource to help people buy good stuff. It is NOT a business front for people wanting to make as much money as possible. Using the classifieds is not a god given right.

In the end it comes down to this: either you trust us to be fair and try to make things work, or you don't and you leave.

Originally Posted by Bruno

It is NOT a business front for people wanting to make as much money as possible. Using the classifieds is not a god given right

That's right, preach it brother!

In the end it comes down to this: either you trust us to be fair and try to make things work, or you don't and you leave.

Wonderful!
Straightforward...
No entitlement ..
I love this philosophy
Thank you....again
Tom

First to the idea of satisfaction guarantee on everything. I don't think that is a good idea at all. for many reasons. I never expect that when I buy something. if it is as described fine, but I think this opens the doors to "tire kickers" who would buy something, try it out, decide they don't like it and want to return it. now maybe you don't mind people test driving your stuff, but if it is going to be mine I do mind. If I sell it and it is somebody elses than fine. now as far as somebody gets something, opens it, and it isn't what they saw in the pics and read about then I have no problem. and I think that people that have dealt with me and things have unfortunately not gone right will say that I do what I need to to make it right. my reputation is worth more to me than any razor. I think though that an unconditional satisfaction guarantee only works when everybody is workign with the same personal ethics, and that's just not ever going to be the case.

As for protecting the integrity of the forum in the classifieds, I think the shave ready is not the area to really focus on. let's be honest, lot's of ways to screw up an edge. the guys that I have used to sharpen blades for me thus far have all been stand up guys, offered to re-hone anything that I thought wasn't sharp enough. they stood behind their work. but here are some problems I see.

- person shaving with the razor doesn't know what they're doing. they strop it and kill the edge. or the blade doesn't shave for them. I had a razor sharpened by Glenn (only putting a name because this is a positive thing). the blade was WICKED sharp, but did not shave well for me. I told him I was confident in the edge, but the blade and my face weren't getting along. he insisted I send it back to be checked. I did, it was indeed up to snuff, I ended up selling it. had nothing to do with the sharpness, but didn't shave well. now, a person just starting out, can they tell if that is the problem? that is why i have started recommending to new guys that when somebody get their razor honed they request that the person doing the work strop it for them and they shave with it BEFORE stropping it themself.

- let's just be frank, there are relationships here, will this oversight realistically be applied fairly across the board? I have received pm's, when I first started and needed honing done, actually warning me to avoid certain people, and this is from experienced board members that don't appear to have beefs between them and indicated party. probably would never be mentioned to mods just for fear, probably unjustified, of reprisal or bad blood. so if a new guy, which I am guessing is our biggest concern with protection, comes on here and buys a blade and then sends a pm complaint about the sharpness, but the person sold it to them is well established, does it get less credibility? none?

I think the most important place to protect buyers, especially as it takes a while from my experience to get your feet under you looking at things and knowing what they are really worth, is from restored or reworked razors that are being sold above, sometimes FAR above, what the work is worth. I think I talked about this on a different thread, so won't beat it do death here. just summarize whatever I said before as "some people's work is not worth what they charge for it, and many of us see the problems and know it" it is one thing to encourage a person's work, point out the good things, but I've noticed that with one exception (And I'm going to thank Alex here) the forum is short on criticism. Okay, I understand that. it's something else though when a razor gets posted for a high ticket price and there are shortcomings. I feel sorry for a new guy that gets real excited over something, buys it, and only finds out down the road, maybe far down, that he's really upside down in it.

how can inexperienced sellers be protected from that type of thing?

Red

I believe that it IS NOT this community's responsibility to save the inexperienced...
Fraudulant yes
Prices no....

It is everyone's responsibility to be accountable for their OWN ACTIONS...

Tom

we all differ in our opinions. I doubt there are many cases of out and out fraud where somebody knows the blade isn't sharp enough but says it is shave ready.

I get what you're saying. there is no realistic way to do it anyways. it is kinda cold though, letting inexperienced people get burned by price gouging. it's like any collecting, cars, guns, glass, until you've handled a whole lot you can't make good decisions, you're just relying on luck. June will be one year for me in straights and i'm just now getting to wear I think I can avoid getting burned. people learn best by making mistakes, I still feel bad for them.

Red

Good stuff Red.

I haven't followed the entire thread with baited breath or anything, but I'll comment on some stuff below...

Originally Posted by Big Red

First to the idea of satisfaction guarantee on everything. I think that a satisfaction guarantee placed on an item FROM THE INDIVIDUAL SELLING IT is a GREAT thing. I personally do this for many reasons- it shows my own confidence in my work, it gives buyers more confidence to buy, and it is generally just a good business practice. I don't think many people would pay a high price for a razor just to try it and send it back because there are always things that could happen and the swindling buyer actually ends up out $300 because he messed up the razor he was 'borrowing'. I think the name of the game in terms of the classifieds is 'reputation and common sense'.

As for protecting the integrity of the forum in the classifieds, I think the shave ready is not the area to really focus on. let's be honest, lot's of ways to screw up an edge. True, but there are definitely razors listed as shave ready that are NOT. This has actually been proven before, but isn't something that can fairly be policed. I'll again say that buyers need to have common sense here. If a razor is sold for $30 and isn't shave ready it isn't a HUGE deal, but can be a bummer for a new user. If a razor is sold for $300 and isn't shave ready (with zero guarantee on workmanship or returns in the ad) then I think it is the buyer's responsibility to first of all, contact the seller, then if all else fails- let EVERYBODY hear about it. This comes back to personal responsibility. It isn't hard from looking through the classifieds to see who sells a lot, or who looks like a reputable seller with lots of shaving experience.

Maybe the classifieds should have a CLEAR note before entering the razor section like a BUYER BEWARE with something about 'shave ready' listings to be at the discretion of the seller, etc. Or just a note saying to do some research and use common sense.


I think the most important place to protect buyers, especially as it takes a while from my experience to get your feet under you looking at things and knowing what they are really worth, is from restored or reworked razors that are being sold above, sometimes FAR above, what the work is worth. This is another thing that deserves thought and study on the part of the buyer just as I mentioned above. Value is whatever an individual wants it to be really. Obviously certain things are unreasonable and certain things make us shake our heads or wonder "wtf?" but I don't think it can be policed. I see stuff that makes me want to RAISE my prices sometimes, but then again, I personally keep selling for what I think the razor and my work are worth. Hope that doesn't sound ****y, but no one should really end up setting prices based on other people's prices. Yes, I'm sure it happens, but it does in everything in life. Again buyers can use common sense- how a listing is worded, the visuals, reputation of the seller both in the classifieds and on the forums, 'background (profile)' check lol. It's sad to say, but it falls back on 'buyer beware'.

it is one thing to encourage a person's work, point out the good things, but I've noticed that with one exception (And I'm going to thank Alex here) the forum is short on criticism. Thanks Red!

how can inexperienced sellers be protected from that type of thing? See all of the above in red.

Red

Thank you admin for protecting us n00bs.
Let me ask a question:
How many members sell here more than one razor at time? That you actually have something to pull if the deal in question is questionable.
Is there standart hair used for the hair test od shave readiness? I had few of mine razors honed by different professional honemeisters which came back shave ready (tried them on my wifes' hair) but after third/fourth stroke on my face they started to pull. Since then I am assuming that none of the razors I am buying is shave ready.
Now something what I expected when I joined this forum:
*Help with learning new skills and knowledge in specialised field.
*Good tips from old hands. perhaps once I will be able to help others and pass the knowledge.
Possibilities of exchanging/trading specialised information and goods.
*To be told-off if I am doing anything wrong that I can correct it and get better. And it could be even in form of my post being deleted by admin. I am leaving free hand for them and their wisdom to do it.
One solution could be this:
If the posted item looks dodgy why not to quranteen it until it will be reliably inspected and reported by an experienced trusted member of this forum? Sorry I am n00b but even some items sold by senior members with hundreds of posts on their account looked rather dubious to me. If it will be okay then it will be released with the report. I know this could be potentially expensive for the seller, but they still have choice to go to open market on ebay and take their luck into their own hands.