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Thread: Deepen my stropping technique, microscope photos

  1. #11
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    First you must get the bevel flat.

    A bevel set, flattens the bevel from the back of the bevel to the edge, sets it in the correct plane, (bevel angle) and gets the two bevels to meet in a straight edge. All three objectives must be met, to fully set a bevel.

    Use pressure on the bevel set. When stropping, you were not applying even pressure and putting more pressure on the spine, (removing stria from the back of the bevel, not the edge). When you torque, use only enough pressure to keep the bevel flat on the strop.

    Now you have convexed the bevel, but you never developed a straight edge.

    The edge should match the spine, that razor probably had a slight smile with the edge matching the spine. Now it does look like it may have a frown, which could keep the middle of the blade from making full contact with the stone.

    Put the edge on a flat surface and see if there is a frown. Also measure the width at the toe, middle and spine. It should measure the same at the three points.

    Time to start over. Joint the edge to get a straight edge and remove all the flashing. Then reset the bevel on the 2k. tape the bevel with 2 pieces of tape and Ink the bevel to ensure you are honing to the edge.

    Your Chromium Oxide appears to be very aggressive; it is pure Chromium Oxide or a Green polishing stick? Polishing compounds are not pure Chromium Oxide and contain mostly Aluminum Oxide that will cut fast but leave a chippy uncomfortable edge.

    Remember the actual edge is super thin, thinner that you can see with USB magnification, to see the actual edge, you need a SEM. So, if you add pressure to a developed edge, you will break it off and have a ragged edge, defeating all your work to that point.

    Are you using pure Chromium Oxide on a clean strop? Is your leather pasted?
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  3. #12
    Senior Member blabbermouth RezDog's Avatar
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    The very foundation of every edge. If correctly set, a wicked 1K edge is a beautiful thing. Seriously. It begin on the 1K and nothing else will matter unless that is correct.
    https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ggestions.html
    This thread has great pictures and good instruction.
    When setting the bevel, and making the two planes of the apex touch, creating the perfect edge, the sides of the bevel are completely irrelevant. The link shows it far better than I can explain.
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    It's not what you know, it's who you take fishing!

  4. #13
    Senior Member TonyJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclid440 View Post
    First you must get the bevel flat.

    A bevel set, flattens the bevel from the back of the bevel to the edge, sets it in the correct plane, (bevel angle) and gets the two bevels to meet in a straight edge. All three objectives must be met, to fully set a bevel.

    Use pressure on the bevel set. When stropping, you were not applying even pressure and putting more pressure on the spine, (removing stria from the back of the bevel, not the edge). When you torque, use only enough pressure to keep the bevel flat on the strop.

    Now you have convexed the bevel, but you never developed a straight edge.

    The edge should match the spine, that razor probably had a slight smile with the edge matching the spine. Now it does look like it may have a frown, which could keep the middle of the blade from making full contact with the stone.

    Put the edge on a flat surface and see if there is a frown. Also measure the width at the toe, middle and spine. It should measure the same at the three points.

    Time to start over. Joint the edge to get a straight edge and remove all the flashing. Then reset the bevel on the 2k. tape the bevel with 2 pieces of tape and Ink the bevel to ensure you are honing to the edge.

    Your Chromium Oxide appears to be very aggressive; it is pure Chromium Oxide or a Green polishing stick? Polishing compounds are not pure Chromium Oxide and contain mostly Aluminum Oxide that will cut fast but leave a chippy uncomfortable edge.

    Remember the actual edge is super thin, thinner that you can see with USB magnification, to see the actual edge, you need a SEM. So, if you add pressure to a developed edge, you will break it off and have a ragged edge, defeating all your work to that point.

    Are you using pure Chromium Oxide on a clean strop? Is your leather pasted?
    Yes, I have clean cro-ox powder and paste too, not stick. Convexing edge is result of too much pressure? Also angeling wrist on strokes or bad stability might be one too? What is the best way to ensure flatness? How edge trailing or edge leading strokes affect? I have an understanding that it's quite a same and personal preference. If I go to light pressure it seems that nothing happens and it takes forever to get any kinds of decent result. Maybe I must go on lower grits. On knife sharpening I have overall the same kind of problem that if I start on higher grits, result is always worse. On knives, chisels etc I can live with that but not with straights.

    I just read on honing section that thread where is much smaller problems than me. Great advices in there as well as here and I think it better to go back only honing until get better results.I also understand that I must focus much more on edge and all particulars. Time to read more too and see how others have solved problems. I I am really grateful that you all have time to repeat and repeat same kinds of answers. It's frustrating to notice fails but belongs to learning curve.
    I get just what I really wanted and deserved. Deepen my understanding
    Last edited by TonyJ; 10-11-2020 at 03:35 PM.

  5. #14
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    So, pressure is a difficult thing to describe. On stones you need enough to remove steel and get the bevel flat at the bevel set stone. Once the bevel is flat, you are just removing the stria to get the edge straighter.

    If you use too much pressure on a wide, hollow ground blade, you can cause the back of the bevel to act as a fulcrum and lift the edge off the stone. Try it, flex the blade, and see how easy it is and how little pressure it takes.

    When stropping you need enough pressure to keep the spine and bevel flat on the strop. Too much and you will convex the bevel or roll the edge. A slightly, micro convex bevel is a good thing, Micro Convexed.

    When teaching new guys to hone, in-person, most do not use enough pressure to set the bevel. They have been reading or watching videos where guys are saying, hone with weight of the blade.

    Not all ways, but usually you need some pressure at bevel set. Once set you just need enough pressure to keep the razor flat on the hone, and remove the prior stria to straighten the edge, finish with weight of the blade.
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  6. #15
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    I was once told "like you're try to shave a thin piece of stone". Based on what I've read here about torque and pressure, I think it is right. But I think this is for polishing and not bevel set.

    These guys can correct me if I'm wrong.
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    If you're wondering I'm probably being sarcastic.

  7. #16
    Senior Member TonyJ's Avatar
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    I was so desperate yesterday, felt so bad and thought that now might be better to take a few days break or something.
    But then mind did not give a peace...
    I read more other threads with thinking about how to connect torque and other advices. Then decided to change razor, I have one Helje #23 which was two nicks in front of blade, not bad but anyway needed a little more action.
    I also decide to change stones. Chose Nani SS 2k and coticule. Started to first focus on stability and how my hands feels torque and pressure. I was pretty sure that weekend mistakes was a little too hard steelfi that TI + after several tried absolutely too much pressure.
    Also one change what I did was no tape. So, it was clear decision to get a better feeling and trusting that, not trusting tape "saviour"
    Only stropping with horsehide which might be too little but that's another practise. Have to go to sleep
    Here are results, still mistakes but overall gave a hope and was happy that I got nicks removed without creating other mistakes
    Somehow microscope photos was really difficult to focus properly today, don't know why
    Razor and stone change was really good move, much better combination to practise
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  8. #17
    Senior Member blabbermouth Kees's Avatar
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    Glad it is working out for you.
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    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr.

  9. #18
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    There is no benefit in learning to hone without tape, not one.

    Once you master honing… then decide if you want to continue to use tape. But, again, there is no good reason not to use tape. If you are learning to hone without tape, you can trash a razor in a hurry.

    The Coticule is the most difficult stone to learn to hone on. Make your life easier, learn on synthetic stones and once you master synthetic stones, then introduce natural stones.

    Look at the thread referred to earlier, (Second Try at Honing). Stay on each stone in the progression until your bevels and edge, look like the photos in the thread at each stone in the progression.

    You appear to have multiple bevels and a microchipped edge in your last photo, how did it shave?
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  10. #19
    Senior Member blabbermouth Kees's Avatar
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    I dare to differ.
    There's only one reason to use tape imho: to avoid honewear of the spine. For some reason honewear is considered a negative attribute. Only reason I can think of is that it will devalue the razor if you want to sell it on.
    My second hone was a kosher coticule (the bee's knees at the time), the hone I spent most time with learning how to hone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclid440 View Post
    You appear to have multiple bevels and a microchipped edge in your last photo, how did it shave?
    This shouldn't come as a surprise as OP mentioned in his last post that he had started to omit tape.
    Last edited by Kees; 10-14-2020 at 05:37 PM.
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    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr.

  11. #20
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    “There's only one reason to use tape imho: to avoid honewear of the spine.”


    And to correct bevel angle, where the honer has honed a razor repeatedly on low grit or aggressive stones and needlessly worn the spine to a point the steel will not support the bevel angle.

    There is no benefit in learning to hone without tape, not one.
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