Thread: Paper testing razors

Originally Posted by mainaman

Can you guess why?

I would love to hear a moderators personal experience with the stone along with why he does not think it is well known as of yet.Granted it may have to do with the fact that they have only been avail for a couple months or so plus or minus but they way you said this I cant help but think your personal experience with it makes me think there may be other reasons.

Originally Posted by JimmyWetshaver

I would love to hear a moderators personal experience with the stone along with why he does not think it is well known as of yet.Granted it may have to do with the fact that they have only been avail for a couple months or so plus or minus but they way you said this I cant help but think your personal experience with it makes me think there may be other reasons.

After reading I can see where this may have come off wrong. My point is as an experienced honer is there something about the performance of this stone that you thinks contributes to its relative unknown status or is it simply due to its relative new availability.

Originally Posted by JimmyWetshaver

After reading I can see where this may have come off wrong. My point is as an experienced honer is there something about the performance of this stone that you thinks contributes to its relative unknown status or is it simply due to its relative new availability.

Since it is a natural hone, it has been around for a while, the fact we have not heard about it here means it is either not quite suitable for razor or it was known only to a very narrow circle of people. We'll know more when it is tested thoroughly.

There are hones that pop up for a while become "trendy" people buy them then most all go back to Eschers, J-Nats, Naniwas, Shaptons the usual hones that have been used for many years and are proven to work. Very rarely a new kind of hone that pops up is actually what it is advertised to be and is accepted by the community.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Since it is a natural hone, it has been around for a while, the fact we have not heard about it here means it is either not quite suitable for razor or it was known only to a very narrow circle of people. We'll know more when it is tested thoroughly.There are hones that pop up for a while become "trendy" people buy them then most all go back to Eschers, J-Nats, Naniwas, Shaptons the usual hones that have been used for many years and are proven to work. Very rarely a new kind of hone that pops up is actually what it is advertised to be and is accepted by the community.

I can see that. This setting is probably where a lot of that filtering often takes place and being new (in relative terms) to a Straight Razor Forum I probably never was exposed to the ones that "didnt make it". I certainly dont see this taking the place of an Escher or respective jnats for sure but it can have its place in a natural progression for some I think. Ive already stated it isnt my finisher of choice but it does have a nice slot for me at the moment. I am curious to hear more experiences with it as time goes on (thus the ?). Thanks for clarifying.

For the record on the paper test, I have seen electron microscope photos of a shave-ready straight razor edge that was pretty badly rolled by cutting a few cm of printer paper. Thinner paper will likely do exactly the same if one cuts more of it. Once the edge starts to roll - even on that small scale - the damage will just snowball from there. This is why I will never personally use it on a finished edge. Below is a photo of the edge rolled by paper at 5,000x magnification, as well as the photo's original caption.

The straight razor edge from the previous image after cutting a few centimeters of bond paper. The foil is fully removed;however, the edge is rolled/folded and visibly damaged.

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com...a-burr-part-2/

Originally Posted by eKretz

. This is why I will never personally use it on a finished edge.

That was my reasoning for not using it beyond 1k. I don't like the idea of the TPT on finished or near finished edges for the same reason.

The simple fact is that a razor, especially a full hollow, does not have the geometry to support cutting paper & all the belief systems that knife sharpeners want to carry over to razors don't always apply, no matter how hard they want to argue the point.

No quote. General answer to the last several posts.

I will not attempt to argue the point of paper cutting. Obviously regular readers here will never accept the possibility of his being acceptable, long enough to learn to use it. It makes no difference to me if you only have a lot of different tests that only test at specific points. That said, You may want to consider what you are looking at in the previous post, and compare it to your own 200x pictures. These most recent pictures are 25X more magnified. Where are the striations? Even a strop would have left more than are in this picture. You are looking at a rolled edge approx. .0001 mm wide, across the roll .005 mm will comfortably shave your face. Check the 0's. It means nothing without the before picture and a picture from after just 1 shave. And as everyone here has already accepted, a magnified picture will not tell what will shave well, only the shave will do that. I saw a study done with numerous electron microscope pictures and explanations some time back, including actual measurements. The study showed pictures taken at different stages of finishing an edge. One outcome of the study was pronounced to indicate that stropping on leather has no benefit. You all believe that don't you? The proof is in the pudding. Anyone not willing to bake the pudding will never find the proof. Nothing I can say, or pictures I can show, will change that.
Cheers,

Originally Posted by onimaru55

The simple fact is that a razor, especially a full hollow, does not have the geometry to support cutting paper & all the belief systems that knife sharpeners want to carry over to razors don't always apply, no matter how hard they want to argue the point.

Yes, as simple as that.
Paper has been tried numerous times and in numerous ways over the years.
It's not like this is something new, far from it.
It is not an ideal test on a razor, it's simply too abrasive and damaging to a fragile structure like a razors edge.

The whole obsessive testing of the edge is basically crutches to the less experienced imho.
The hones, once you know them and the steel put on them well enough, will tell you all you really need.
A few arm hairs at bevel set perhaps, a couple more when finishing, is ample.
The thumbpad test, once dialled in, can be useful too.
In addition to the shave test.

Originally Posted by bigeasy1

No quote. General answer to the last several posts.

I will not attempt to argue the point of paper cutting. Obviously regular readers here will never accept the possibility of his being acceptable, long enough to learn to use it. It makes no difference to me if you only have a lot of different tests that only test at specific points. That said, You may want to consider what you are looking at in the previous post, and compare it to your own 200x pictures. These most recent pictures are 25X more magnified. Where are the striations? Even a strop would have left more than are in this picture. You are looking at a rolled edge approx. .0001 mm wide, across the roll .005 mm will comfortably shave your face. Check the 0's. It means nothing without the before picture and a picture from after just 1 shave. And as everyone here has already accepted, a magnified picture will not tell what will shave well, only the shave will do that. I saw a study done with numerous electron microscope pictures and explanations some time back, including actual measurements. The study showed pictures taken at different stages of finishing an edge. One outcome of the study was pronounced to indicate that stropping on leather has no benefit. You all believe that don't you? The proof is in the pudding. Anyone not willing to bake the pudding will never find the proof. Nothing I can say, or pictures I can show, will change that.
Cheers,

OK now that's just insulting. Because someone regularly reads this message board it makes them a closed-minded pinhead?

As far as your other points, first, there are striations visible on that razor, they are just very shallow. If you had followed the link and read a moment you'd have seen that the razor in question was honed on a 16k Shapton, then a pasted hanging leather strop was used with .5 micron diamond abrasive. 1 micron is .001mm, so we're talking diamond particles that are .0005mm in diameter. On hanging leather which lets the particles push away rather than cut deeply. How on earth are you expecting to see deep striations?

Second, there is no way in hell you are going to shave comfortably with a .005mm (5 micron!) apex width on a razor. Average comfortable shaving width for a razor apex that I've seen bandied about is under .5 micron, or .0005mm.

Third, of course bare leather stropping does something. It aligns and straightens the edge/apex and removes burrs. Enough laps can start to burnish slightly, but isn't going to make large structural changes to an edge. If you are seeing something like that when stropping then you likely have contamination on your strop.

The general point here is that cutting paper with a finished edge (shave-ready) razor will damage the edge. Will it damage the edge more than a shave? Maybe, maybe not. But why would you want to start your first shave with a fresh honed razor with an edge that has been damaged enough to where it might as well be your second shave or more? Personally I'd prefer to let that damage occur during the shaves, not prior to them.