Thread: ONE COTICULE HONING

Hi Sham, Not speaking for Bart, but i have been wanting to reply.

I use very much the same method on every stone, sans the tape strategy. which I mean back and forth on one side, then the other; followed by a balancing smoothing with diagonal strokes on the flip flop. Each stone is worked like Bart's single stone method with variations in intensity, time spent one motion vs any others, etc

Our human error is no more likely to be minimized by passes on each side in pairs. All the issues you raised about inequality of strokes are really not so vital to the process of sharpening. There is only one edge.

Primarily, the bevels do not need to be equal, nor is there any way to precisely judge that the true edge is in the exact center of the blade body.

However with some observation one can judge the condition of the blade(- one side may have already been honed asymmetrically- balanced maintenance would only prolong the "defect".) And decide which face needs more and which less to create as much as possible equivalent, continuous, planer bevels on each face. It other words make it happen actively, not by passively following a regime.

I imagine Bart had some long discussions with himself before selecting 30 as a compromise between too little and too much to assure a beginner getting results. (Hi Bart)There is no magic number or necessary count of strokes- such info is for the unsure.A starting point you might say.

"sharpen as needed until sharp" would not make for a popular tutorial but is really all you need to know

Originally Posted by kevint

"sharpen as needed until sharp" would not make for a popular tutorial but is really all you need to know

+1. In bevel setting I do the circles and paint brush strokes on one side for ten laps and then the other and repeat if necessary before I get to the alternating x pattern. It takes whatever it takes until your bevel is set depending on the blade. The same with the rest of the the process. As many laps as it takes.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I am positive doing 30 stroke on one side and 30 strokes another will end up uneven bevel 90% times.

So what? why not try the method and see what you think first

I am going to try it this week on a few razors just for - dare I say it... - fun!

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I am going to try it this week on a few razors just for - dare I say it... - fun!

Yes, me too. Nice article, Bart.

Bart i'm just trying method when you say shave arm hair i can get razor to only just shave arm hair and leg hair is that ok. ?I've just finished last stage and it easily shaves arm hair.

Originally Posted by Bart

Because the new, secondary bevel is only altered by the smallest possible degree, it must be allowed enough width, in order to refine the initial bevel. A drawing should clarify this:


.

I have to show this and hope this helps a little more .
your picture after setting bevel adding 1 layers of tape will not do what you have shown on picture 3 and 4 but it will most likely will do process is shown below.i will attach picture.
I will answer all the questions which members asks from me but i am sure there is a lot more unhappy members will respond this. That is why i will wait a little longer.

this is what is i think and nothing else just to help each other and rest. I don't mean to disrespect to you or your ideas i just think it is wrong .

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

After using this method, I'm assuming you'd need to use tape to touch up the razor due to the double bevel?

-Chief

That is correct.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Thanks for another useful post Bart. Personally I find setting a bevel on a coticule a PITA . If that is the only game in town than so be it but having messed with a few razors and various coticules I decided that going through the extra time involved just to say that I did wasn't worth the effort. I'll stick with my 1 and 2K Shapton pros or my DMT 1200. I think you have a DMT 1200 too don't you ? A very efficiant bevel setter.

Yes, I have a DMT 1200, and it is an excellent hone. I have used it as my main bevelsetter for a long time. The last thing I want to do, with this thread, is to give the impression that I consider a Coticule better than most other hones. It is not better, but it does work for the purpose I suggest. People has been using it for several centuries to accomplish this tasks. It so happens that I have a fondness for these hones, and turned them in sort of a hobby. As a result, much - but not al - of what I have to share on SRP is related to honing on Coticules. If you're not interested in honing an entire razor on only one hone, I can completely understand that. But this happens to be my game and I love it .
If I ever came accross as if I find my game superior to any one else's, I sincerely apologise. (This last sentence is not directed to you Jimmy).

Another difference in our honing philosophy is when to apply the tape. Since the bevel setting is putting more wear on the spine than any other part of the process I prefer to tape from the beginning and set the bevel. I don't like the idea of the double bevel that would be the result of introducing the tape later in the process. I know that some feel it makes for a stronger edge.

Stronger or not, that's not my concern. The problem I had was that I can get more keenness if I can allow the Coticule -water only- to work on a rather narrow bevel. Some razors are extremely thin groung, so they have very narrow bevels. I started noticing that they could be refined on a Coticule with water, while wider bevel could only be polished by it, no matter how many laps. Taping after the edge has maxed out on slurry offers me precisely that: a narrow bevel, than I can allow to grow till the Coticule/water slows down and goes from refining into polishing. That delivers me the highest keenness I can manage off a Coticule so far. Sure I can also get such keenness of my Chosera 10K, but that would defeat the goal.

Like Lynn, if I understand him correctly, I prefer an edge that is keener than a coticule by itself will provide so I will typically go to the Escher or maybe the Shapton 15k pro to finish. The edge a coticule leaves is smooth but IME not as comfortable for me as that of the forementioned hones.

I too prefer a keener edge than a standard honing method on a Coitucle delivers. Why else would I come up with a method that aims at bridging what I call "the gap between Coticule use with slurry and its use with water". There are many hones capable to improve the keenness that a Coticule with slurry leaves. But I had not yet a good consistent method to do it without leaving the Coticule. I could do it sometimes, so I knew it was within reach. With the method that I presented in this thread, I claim that it can be done fairly consistently.

No one needs to try it if he doesn't want to...

Bart.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I am sorry but i have to be respectfully disagree with your method.
Lets see what makes me not happy.
at first

your first step making 30 strokes in one side then go to another side and make 30 strokes?
You know and understand i am sure about it. it will not be exact amount of pressure put on both sides?
it is just impossible to put same amount of pressure in 30 strokes on both side of the blade. that is why you are saying pay attention to bevel as soon as you see uneven bevel go head fix it? quesion is why? why not do turn the blade and make normal strokes on both side of the blade?

Sham, regular X-strokes don't offer any extra guarantee at equal pressure. If anyone needs to do a lot of bevel work on a heavily convexed bevel, I would always advice him to keep an eye on both sides developing evenly. If not, the only remedy to deal with it, as far as I know, is to spend some extra time on the narrowest side.

what is your scientific prove 30 x30 in different sides is better then just regular way making strokes?
None, what is yours?

I am positive doing 30 stroke on one side and 30 strokes another will end up uneven bevel 90% times.
We are humans not machines to put exact pressures while doing 30 strokes.
Rest assured, during regular X's, my pull half differs form my push half also. Getting unequal bevel faces is something that happens slowly over many honing jobs. There's plenty of time to watch it and to compensate with some extra work on the narrow side.

in extreme case you will end up making 1400 stroke (including 30 +60 on strop)
Now My questions is this
after setting bevel you are taping back of the blade and making 30 strokes with belgian coticule ? you think this will great a new bevel ? I really don't think so.
Lastly i think spending so much time is just waste of time. You can bring any razor in better condition by using Norton 4/8 a lot less time.
I don't have a Norton 4K/8K...
On a typical dull razor, using my suggested method takes me under 15 minutes. (I know that I'm a rapid X-stroker, but the most time goes into the bevel setting, which uses the one-sided stroke. Anyone can do that fast.) How long does it take on a Norton? 5 minutes?
Again I personally have nothing against you but i am against your ideas which i think is not right.
I haven't seen any person come back and say they had great shave off of coticule .You can get great shave off coticule but you will need to go next step pastes or escher's or nakayama.
This is my 002 cent.

Sham, you say the Coticule gives not good results. That is true, is you expect good keenness from the use of slurry. So far you have dismissed my theories about them. Which is fine, because I don't care. I'm here to share what works for me, and my unsolicited green dits suggest that some of it also works for others. If you are not prepared to try the things that work for others, then you'll never find out the true brilliance of Coticules, as I will never find out the charm and excellence of the Norton, becaus I'm not prepared to buy one. (I won't hesitate to try though, if I ever get the free opportunity).

RESPECTFULLY
But of course, respectfully. I like your open and direct honesty.

SHAM

Best regards,
Bart.

Thanks for the clarification Bart. I too appreciate the coticule for the history and what I call the mystique that it brings with it. For certain razors after the bevel is set with the diamond plate or the Shapton I will go with a coticule (natural BBW/yellow) alone .

To prove my affection for them I have a dozen and have to restrain myself from getting even more. My devotion to them is not as strong as yours however and expediency frequently leads me to other options for that keener edge.