Thread: Scratches on the bevel

I like to polish out the scratches because it looks neat.

You got to get your entertainment some way, ya know?.

Originally Posted by rayman

It has been my assumption that we generally start honing at the 1k level to produce a bevel for the base, then go to the following: 4k, 8k, 12k, 16k, finishing stone, .5 paste, maybe .25 past = 60k, then linen, and finally strop.
Ray

That's a lot of stuff. It makes me wonder if there should be an Advanced Stropping forum.

Tonight I forgot to strop/ got distracted watching Davide kick the ass of a hot iranian agent on NCIS rerun. The less shiny than 8k coticule still gave a remarkable shave. I hope i remember not to strop to see how many it will give.

Originally Posted by kevint

That's a lot of stuff. It makes me wonder if there should be an Advanced Stropping forum.

Tonight I forgot to strop/ got distracted watching Davide kick the ass of a hot iranian agent on NCIS rerun. The less shiny than 8k coticule still gave a remarkable shave. I hope i remember not to strop to see how many it will give.

I should have indicated that each of these steps were available for use, but not all of them are necessarily used at once. Each blade seems to require a different combination to arrive at the final product. So no, I don't use all of these for each blade. Sorry I didn't clarify this at the time I wrote it.

Ray

Its a very good question. Any testing that I have done has not indicated much of a need for concern over striations or polish.

I may have noted, several years ago, that when shaving off 4K that the striational pattern did matter, but I've forgotten now.

I think, therefore, it might matter if your using a low grit hone. But again, I don't really remember.

One time, and only one time, I produced an edge far superior to any I've ever produced since. At that moment I used a tad of pressure and moved one side of an edge back and forth in exact alignment, then flipped the razor and did the same on the other side. I have never been able to replicate that edge, or even a better edge with the same process. It was probably some other fact (like stropping?) that created that edge.

The only possible idea that a good polish is a good thing is that I know that some references say that a good stropping should look like a slight shadow on the edge. Therefore the greater the polish to more likely you'd be able to actually see good stropping.

I will have to admit though that many of my razors are well polished, but none are such great shavers that I'm convinced I have nothing left to learn.

You can never remove the scratches from lower grits effectively unless you are willing to spend obscene amount of time on your polishing stones.
My example is with knives.
I like to make wide bevels and my progression is 1k/3k/5k/8k/10k /CrO strop, and I go back to 5/8/10/strop after the first set. The bevel is mirror polished but still has small scratch marks from the lower grits. Complete removal of scratch requires increased amount of time on each next higher grit. The scratches on the bevel are not indicator of bad edge to the best of my experience.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

... I will have to admit though that many of my razors are well polished, but none are such great shavers that I'm convinced I have nothing left to learn.

I came back to this thread to post the same thought after browsing through my razors, and musing on the previous posts.

The "Scratches" on the bevel are technically referred to by toolmark examiners, those who study and compare the scratches, as "Stria" striated toolmarks or sliding stria toolmarks

Fine marks on a surface left by a tool, when a tool slides over a surface or creates a new surface by cutting through a material.

A good model is a serrated knife slicing butter, or marks on a bullet, the impressions of the lands and grooves from rifling and the finer stria on the land and groove from the steel that in turn is left by the edge of the button cutting the original land and groove by the factory or gunsmith or the razor edge sliding upon the stone, polishing grit or even paper.

I believe the confusion may come from the age old tradition of polishing the back side of a chisel or smoothing plane blade to a mirror finish, which is in fact creating smaller or microscopic stria.

On a chisel or plane blade the back side’s finish or the size of the stria is critical to the ultimate sharpness of the chisel as only one side of the bevel is ground.

Where the two planes meet, the back of the chisel/plane blade and the bevel determine the sharpness of the point. The edge looked at under magnification looks like a saw, with the stria edge as the gullets. The smaller the stria, and there is always stria though possibly microscopic the smaller the gullets and sharper the point, the cutting edge.

So polishing is absolutely critical for a sharp chisel/plane blade edge.

But with a razor or knife you areproducing a bevel on both sides and creating new stria on both bevels with each pass on the tool, the sharpening medium.

The size of pre-existing stria on the bevel is of no consequence as it is abraded and a progression of finer stria is produced in the sharpening progression. The edge is also abraded reducing the width of the blade, the surface of the bevels and the pre existing stria.

The goal as I see it is to produce the finest stria on both sides of the edge for the finest, sharpest edge. This is one of the outcomes of a Micro Bevel when we polish or re-grind only the edge by increasing the bevel angle.

The question is how sharp is sharp enough? That is where the other factors come into play, quality of the steel, angle of the bevel, quality and consistency of grit size and ultimately the medium to be cut, the facial hair.

And possibly most important the expertise of the operators, the honer and end user, their ability to achieve consistency… and that is where experience comes into play

Originally Posted by M Martinez

...Where the two planes meet, the back of the chisel/plane blade and the bevel determine the sharpness of the point. The edge looked at under magnification looks like a saw, with the stria edge as the gullets. The smaller the stria, and there is always stria though possibly microscopic the smaller the gullets and sharper the point, the cutting edge.

So polishing is absolutely critical for a sharp chisel/plane blade edge.

But with a razor or knife you areproducing [sic] a bevel on both sides and creating new stria on both bevels with each pass on the tool, the sharpening medium.

The size of pre-existing stria on the bevel is of no consequence as it is abraded and a progression of finer stria is produced in the sharpening progression. The edge is also abraded reducing the width of the blade, the surface of the bevels and the pre existing stria.

The goal as I see it is to produce the finest stria on both sides of the edge for the finest, sharpest edge. This is one of the outcomes of a Micro Bevel when we polish or re-grind only the edge by increasing the bevel angle...

First off, I am not being contradictory for it's own sake here, but it seems these (in red) statements are in opposition to each other:

Whether or not you are working on one side of the bevel or both sides together, your statements above indicate that smaller striations=better cutting edge.

How can that not apply to a razor's edge?

I am begining to think that there are two schools of thought to look at bevels, literally.
School I : The Classic Bevel. This the type of bevel that Lynn and other well known pros have been doing for years and even generations. It is a world class standard and arguably produces the best shave possible within the design limits of the materials. They seem to think that shinning bevels and getting rid of scratches is functionally a waste of time and the scratches themselves are in their own way contributing to the superiority of the proven standard. Honemeisters, correct that statement if it is wrong.
School II. The Experimenters: This is not a more advanced school because if you do not have excellent honing skills it is more than likely going to waste your time and money. The goal is a smoother edge produced by better sorted nano particle hones or natural ones going to produce a strong serviceable edge? How will it compare with the classic edge? To be continued...
Mike

Originally Posted by Kingfish

I am begining to think that there are two schools of thought to look at bevels, literally.
School I : The Classic Bevel. This the type of bevel that Lynn and other well known pros have been doing for years and even generations. It is a world class standard and arguably produces the best shave possible within the design limits of the materials. They seem to think that shinning bevels and getting rid of scratches is functionally a waste of time and the scratches themselves are in their own way contributing to the superiority of the proven standard. Honemeisters, correct that statement if it is wrong.
School II. The Experimenters: This is not a more advanced school because if you do not have excellent honing skills it is more than likely going to waste your time and money. The goal is a smoother edge produced by better sorted nano particle hones or natural ones going to produce a strong serviceable edge? How will it compare with the classic edge? To be continued...
Mike

I'm not going to disagree exactly, but I will add: whoa take it easy tossing the bests, and superioritys around will ya Mike?

An easy way to look at it is like this: Can you shave well enough from 4k? (why yes, I can) can you do it from 8K(indeed).... so a combination of those two are likely to work as well. Equally so if the edge is composed remnants of 8, 12, 16 etc.