Thread: Scratches on the bevel

Originally Posted by kevint

An easy way to look at it is like this: Can you shave well enough from 4k? (why yes, I can) can you do it from 8K(indeed).... so a combination of those two are likely to work as well. Equally so if the edge is composed remnants of 8, 12, 16 etc.

Yeah, it seems to me that some approach it from an 8 is enough point of view. IOW will it give me the shave I'm looking for ? If it does it is "good enough".

Than on the other extreme there are some honers who seek to push the envelope to get the sharpest and most polished edge that they can attain. Nothing wrong with that approach either if that is your bag.

There are gradations in between those two extremes and that is fine too. On the Shapton USA website there is this quote,"Sharpening is an attempt at perfection. The most interesting aspect of sharpening is the reflection of the infinite." For some honers that is the level that they are shooting for. I think Kevin is one of those.

Right now I am one of the pragmatic honers. I want to get a razor sharp enough for a great shave. When I get it that sharp I want to get it sharper. When it is as sharp as I can get it with my current skill level I grab another and see how far I can go.

Where my head is right now I am more into keenness than perfection on a cosmetic level. If I ever get to a level where I am advanced enough to be satisfied with the keenness I am getting consistently I may go on to the reflection of the infinite level but I'm not there yet. More power to you if that is what you are shooting for.

for me, this is a very simple question of aesthetics.
My car will not drive faster because it looks nice.
But if it looks good (ie sporty) I will like it more.

So there is a difference in getting you were you want to be
and getting there a special way.
That doesn´t mean a norton 8k honed razor won´t give a special shave.

So when I look at the bevel of my edge and see some scratches I say
"oh, what a pitty. How will it shave?"
If it shaves nice I am totally satisfied.

If I see a nice and crisp bevel absolutely shining
I say "wow, looks nice! How will it shave?"
If it shaves nice I am more than satisfied, I am pleased.

So there is no functionality in a scratch free bevel,
if a "scratched" one shaves just as well.
It´s just a preference and this should be kept in mind by those
new to the game. If it shaves nice, everything is fine.

But one thing that I think about a lot is this:
I always thought razors were THE standart when it comes to sharpening.
Where would a perfectly formed edge with no burr and chips be needed more than here.
I learned about microtomes.
Those are used in biology to cut samples into very, very thin layers
and inspect them under extremely high magnification.

In the early days this was done with straights.
Nowadays they just use DEs.

If the edge of the knive had one single chip/tooth,
or even slightly bigger scratchmarks on the surface,
these scratches would transfer to the sample
making it impossible to look at it under the mikroskope cleanly.

So technically, microtome knive standarts are superior to straight razor standarts?!

I see what you mean. If looking at the cut whisker under a high power microscope was the objective then I would have a problem.

Originally Posted by kevint

I'm not going to disagree exactly, but I will add: whoa take it easy tossing the bests, and superioritys around will ya Mike?

An easy way to look at it is like this: Can you shave well enough from 4k? (why yes, I can) can you do it from 8K(indeed).... so a combination of those two are likely to work as well. Equally so if the edge is composed remnants of 8, 12, 16 etc.

Kevin,
There has to be a well respected standard as to what is considered a working perfect edge. For lack of better terms I am using the "Classical Edge" I give credit where it is due and that goes to people who make their living and have won worldwide recognition for their methods and products.
If that standard is acceptable why not accept it in and of itself. Sorry if you think the accolades were not accurate, IMHO they are on the money,literally.
The Classical Edge is not the standard where creativity is needed. Indeed, creativity confuses the issue. Different styles within limits to achieve the same standard. This is what a new generation of shavers need to get there perfect shave and advance their hand at honing, many for the first time in their lives. This is the larger mission I have come to respect and will understand it and promote it like I do other arts and diciplines. That is a big part of my professional life and obviously, I am not here to make a dime. Not selling anything. Learning and promoting and helping a brother of two a better shave as I have been helped.
Now, I am also into the honing limits of the abrasives, the steels and my own. I love progress if it ever happens and the unexpected fun along the way. It is finanacialy bad but good for my mind and skills. For now I will eat humble pie, as it is very possible that an ever so closer to perfect edge may be viewed as outside the standard and not universally accepted. I sure as hell know I could not make a living taking so long to prepare one bevel when I take them to the limit.
M

Originally Posted by Lesslemming

for me, this is a very simple question of aesthetics.
My car will not drive faster because it looks nice.
But if it looks good (ie sporty) I will like it more.

So there is a difference in getting you were you want to be
and getting there a special way.
That doesn´t mean a norton 8k honed razor won´t give a special shave.

So when I look at the bevel of my edge and see some scratches I say
"oh, what a pitty. How will it shave?"
If it shaves nice I am totally satisfied.

If I see a nice and crisp bevel absolutely shining
I say "wow, looks nice! How will it shave?"
If it shaves nice I am more than satisfied, I am pleased.

So there is no functionality in a scratch free bevel,
if a "scratched" one shaves just as well.
It´s just a preference and this should be kept in mind by those
new to the game. If it shaves nice, everything is fine.

But one thing that I think about a lot is this:
I always thought razors were THE standart when it comes to sharpening.
Where would a perfectly formed edge with no burr and chips be needed more than here.
I learned about microtomes.
Those are used in biology to cut samples into very, very thin layers
and inspect them under extremely high magnification.

In the early days this was done with straights.
Nowadays they just use DEs.

If the edge of the knive had one single chip/tooth,
or even slightly bigger scratchmarks on the surface,
these scratches would transfer to the sample
making it impossible to look at it under the mikroskope cleanly.

So technically, microtome knive standarts are superior to straight razor standarts?!

since the bevel is only one side, it is a little easier to get them better, but I am sure a good percentage of the honers that who are still interested in this thread could get a str8 edge every bit as sharp. Also in cutting the specimen you physically need a dead flat side to cut evenly which is the real reason for the flat side.
Mike

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Kevin,
There has to be a well respected standard as to what is considered a working perfect edge. For lack of better terms I am using the "Classical Edge" I give credit where it is due and that goes to people who make their living and have won worldwide recognition for their methods and products.
If that standard is acceptable why not accept it in and of itself. Sorry if you think the accolades were not accurate, IMHO they are on the money,literally.
The Classical Edge is not the standard where creativity is needed. Indeed, creativity confuses the issue. Different styles within limits to achieve the same standard. This is what a new generation of shavers need to get there perfect shave and advance their hand at honing, many for the first time in their lives. This is the larger mission I have come to respect and will understand it and promote it like I do other arts and diciplines. That is a big part of my professional life and obviously, I am not here to make a dime. Not selling anything. Learning and promoting and helping a brother of two a better shave as I have been helped.
Now, I am also into the honing limits of the abrasives, the steels and my own. I love progress if it ever happens and the unexpected fun along the way. It is finanacialy bad but good for my mind and skills. For now I will eat humble pie, as it is very possible that an ever so closer to perfect edge may be viewed as outside the standard and not universally accepted. I sure as hell know I could not make a living taking so long to prepare one bevel when I take them to the limit.
M

you lost me again. working edge. perfect edge. standard edge. standard working perfect edge?

Best? What is best? Superior- what's that? Establishing a Standard is acheivable.

but I am sure a good percentage of the honers that have not vomited and are still interested in this thread could get a str8 edge every bit as sharp.

did I say different? I thought we were talking about scratches on the bevel

Originally Posted by Kingfish

since the bevel is only one side, it is a little easier to get them better, but I am sure a good percentage of the honers that have not vomited and are still interested in this thread could get a str8 edge every bit as sharp. Also in cutting the specimen you physically need a dead flat side to cut evenly which is the real reason for the flat side.
Mike

Mike you made your point and it should be enough. this is how i do. I did start this thread and point was scratches has nothing to do with the sharpening of the blade.
What i find out talking with member's which were interesting about scratches he used the scratches to guide himself how to hone Blade.
Let me explain .
He uses 1 k set the bevel then when he moves to 2k . Now after making number of strokes(doesn't matter in this case) he checks bevel again. Now he is watching to see all scratches from 1 k is gone and new 2k scratches appear. after this he moves on to next one.

This is how he get used to learn. Scratches on the bevel just guide for him but that doesn't mean if scratches not in there anymore blade should be shave ready or vs verse.
In our conversation i find out i have never used stones which person uses in this case i can't say to that person anything the reason is i don;t know. The only way i can say anything about to see Blade sharpened with that person. we have got agreement and in future we will try to do so.
hope this helps.-

This has been a great thread, and I would like to thank hi_bud_gl for starting it. Sometimes there needs to be a devils advocate to generate some different opinions to create more information to look more objectively at an issue, and that is what I tried to do in the beginning. This thread has really done that. Now, this is my real take on it.

The honing process moves along in different steps, and we have various ways of checking our progress to allow us to move on to the next step and ultimately finish. During this I have never used the polishing of the bevel as an indicator of sharpness. The truth is, again, the ultimate test is the shave test. Before that the TPT tells me when to move from the final finish to the strop. It doesn't matter what the finish of the bevel looks like, and under the 60x scope it never is without some kind of scratches. If the razor is smooth during the shave, it is done, period.

At this point I am going to remove this thread from my watch list, and thank everyone for their input and views. Very educational.

And thanks again Hi_bud.

Ray

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Mike you made your point and it should be enough. this is how i do. I did start this thread and point was scratches has nothing to do with the sharpening of the blade.
What i find out talking with member's which were interesting about scratches he used the scratches to guide himself how to hone Blade.
Let me explain .
He uses 1 k set the bevel then when he moves to 2k . Now after making number of strokes(doesn't matter in this case) he checks bevel again. Now he is watching to see all scratches from 1 k is gone and new 2k scratches appear. after this he moves on to next one.

This is how he get used to learn. Scratches on the bevel just guide for him but that doesn't mean if scratches not in there anymore blade should be shave ready or vs verse.
In our conversation i find out i have never used stones which person uses in this case i can't say to that person anything the reason is i don;t know. The only way i can say anything about to see Blade sharpened with that person. we have got agreement and in future we will try to do so.
hope this helps.-

I know why you started the post and it is a very good one. If you read careful, I was just trying to contrast two types of sharpeners and the way they do it. It is all good and fun.
Mike