Thread: HHT Levels?

And there ya have it as yet another HHT thread devolves into Reductio ad absurdum ...


Does anyone dispute the argument that the HHT is for the person Honing the razor that has calibrated it to mean something, and not for a Newb to test the shave readiness of his new razor before he tries shaving it ???? Anyone ????

Originally Posted by ace

The truth is that if I didn't have the HHT, I wouldn't know when to stop honing. I have gotten to the point that using the HHT tells me, without fail, when a razor will shave well. I use different hairs, observe the results, and when finer hairs are getting snipped easily, I know the blade will shave. I can take any blade I have out of my storage cabinet, check it with the HHT and know whether it will shave or needs a touch-up.

There is no question that the shave is the most important thing, but I'll be damned if I'm going to have to lather up and shave to test a blade when I have found an easier, quicker and infallible way of checking the edge while I'm honing. With all the different hairs I have to test with, and with the experience I have developed in years of using it, it NEVER fails to predict precisely how the shave will be.

I'm not sure why you're so worked up. You are using HHT because it's faster than lathering. You are saying a variety of hairs is a plus and you have bagfuls of them to help you perform your test.

You're presenting the HHT as the ultimate test to tell you when you need to stop honing. Apparently you don't use it to tell you when to switch hones. Why? Perhaps it is because there is a faster test that tells you that and that's what you are using.

What if I tell you that some of the best honers I know use only the visual and tactile feedback of the honing stroke to know when the razor is not progressing any further and they are done honing. It's far simpler than what you are doing with multiple or special hairs.

You know what makes the experience in this post http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...ng-honing.html so special - the teacher customizing the instructions to the needs of the student.
And yes, Alan is among the best.


Now, if you need HHT to tell you when to stop honing what test do you use to tell you when to stop stropping? Have you considered performing that test during honing?

I use the hht and my daughters hair is like mine. And I only use her hair so it works for me. As was said many use it or don't use it. It can help you if you choose to but there are other ways of knowing when the blade is ready. The feedback from the hone, water displacement undercut etc. as well as experience telling you x amount of strokes will remove scratches from a specific prior grit. ANd the visual will confirm or negate that as you can see whether you did or didn't. Jnats I finish on water so when they start sliding on the stone, I know Im there. Synthetics are more like recipe honing. You know how many strokes to finish it off. ANd this is confirmed by the scratch patterns. AS LONG as the bevel was set properly which is a given. Bevels don't have any recipe. when its set, its set.

Originally Posted by gugi

I'm not sure why you're so worked up. You are using HHT because it's faster than lathering. You are saying a variety of hairs is a plus and you have bagfuls of them to help you perform your test.

You're presenting the HHT as the ultimate test to tell you when you need to stop honing. Apparently you don't use it to tell you when to switch hones. Why? Perhaps it is because there is a faster test that tells you that and that's what you are using.

What if I tell you that some of the best honers I know use only the visual and tactile feedback of the honing stroke to know when the razor is not progressing any further and they are done honing. It's far simpler than what you are doing with multiple or special hairs.

You know what makes the experience in this post http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...ng-honing.html so special - the teacher customizing the instructions to the needs of the student.
And yes, Alan is among the best.


Now, if you need HHT to tell you when to stop honing what test do you use to tell you when to stop stropping? Have you considered performing that test during honing?

Well, I don't feel worked up at all. I'm just trying to make a case for the usefulness of the HHT. Perhaps it might calm me down if I answer your questions.

First, I use the HHT to tell me when the edge is shave ready. I hone downstairs in my man cave. I could run upstairs, lather up (heck, I could even take a hot shower) and shave to test the edge, but the HHT allows me to know it's sharp much more quickly and save me the trouble.

As for using it to help me know when to go from hone to hone, there is no reason for it. My experience has shown me that shave readiness starts to become an issue only after my 8K Norton. I may use it at this point, but usually just go on to the Naniwa SS 12K. At this point, the blade should be close, and I may test it at this point. But I might just go on to the Gokumyo and do 30 laps and then test it.

If all is well at that point, and it always has been, based on the HHT, I go on to strop the blade 100 laps on my SRD Modular Strop with the Bridle leather pad. I will check the blade with the HHT after that just for confirmation, but my stropping technique (and nickless strop) has shown me that the results should be fine.

I don't really need tests to evaluate when to go from hone to hone. I set bevels on either a Chosera or Norton 1K. The existence of a proper bevel is checked visually under good lighting and a 10X loupe. From there on through the 4K, 8K and up I have a set routine, sometimes varying a bit based on the blade being honed, that has always worked and doesn't need to be checked.

I don't think the HHT is the "ultimate" test to know when to stop honing because the blade is then shave ready. It is a functional test though, one that seems to work well for me, and it beats the heck out of going upstairs to shave both in terms of time and trouble. I could bring a second shaving set-up downstairs to check my edges with (and I must admit I do have several set-ups), but all it takes is a quick choice of a hair from my stash, one drop on the blade, and my work is done.

Of course, the HHT is just one of many possible tests, including the so-called "shave test", and shaving quality is admittedly what really matters. Some people work on the test, find it valuable and use it. Others try it once and dismiss it. But dismissing a test because one does not understand it is like avoiding chess because you lost your first game or never turning right at intersections because doing so once resulted in an accident.

What really intrigues me is why discussion of the HHT here generates more heat than light. Why is someone who attempts to show how it can be productively utilized described as "so worked up"? I can assure you that I am tranquilly calm, too old to really get "worked up" anymore and just interested in trying to explain something instead of dismissing it. I have dismissed a lot of things in my life that would have benefited me if I took a serious interest in understanding them. It is a good thing for my honing and for my face that the HHT is no longer one of them.

No one is disputing that the HHT can be useful. No one has really disputed that for quite a number of years now.

Also, no one is disputing that there are gradations of "success". Anyone who has used the HHT for any amount of time knows immediately what someone is trying to say when they talk about HHT4, or at least I do. We've all seen a HHT where the hair splits rather than cuts, or pops rather than silently drops to the floor.

And I for one have no issue with anyone having their own personal numbering system for the HHT - what you do with your own time is your business and no one else's.

However, it is I think incumbent on anyone with even a passing familiarity with the concept of measure theory and the definition of a metric, or even just plain common sense, to point out to anyone who cares to listen that assigning a numerical system to what is quite clearly a subjective ordinal scale is misguided in the best case and deliberately misleading in the worst.

And just to clarify the history of this, it is my understanding that the numerical system for the HHT was at least popularised by a former member who liked to think they did things scientifically, but either lacked the time, patience, resources or skill to actually do it correctly.

The HHT numbering system is NOT comparable across individuals. It is NOT comparable across hair types. It is NOT comparable across steel types. There have been no properly controlled empirical studies done on the most important reason why you would grade a HHT: between individuals. All the work in this area has been done by individuals, who then pass on what they "reckon" to others and whack a number on the end in the vain hope that it somehow adds some sort of scientific validity to their half-assed fumblings at the workbench.

I know that sounds harsh, and I apologise for being blunt. I realise we are not a university research team, but truth is truth. Use a gradated HHT if you wish but be aware of what it actually means and what it doesn't. Maybe then we can all talk about the HHT in a useful way instead of bickering back and forth.

For what it's worth, I always test edges I hone for others firstly with a shave test, and then after that with a HHT because I know that probably the first thing the recipient will do is HHT it - my empirical studies have shown that I get the best feedback from clients if the edge passes the HHT3.86, on average, and I'd hate to disappoint them.

James.

Originally Posted by cosperryan

So I didn't really know where to post this so I figured the beginner area is as good a place as any. I don't really get into the HHT to much and really I only do it because it is fun or I am showing it to someone. I have been reading though in some posts that people will say that they honed their razor on whatever rock and then did the HHT and got a "HHT 4" or "passed level 3 HHT" or something like that.

As far as I have understood it, the HHT was when you took a hair brought it down to the blade and if it cut the hair then voila your blade or hair passes the test. I didn't know there were levels or variations. So what am I not getting here?

Well, once upon a time.... A lad( sadly me) was standing infront of the bathroom mirror right after honing and Stropping a new eBay razor(which he was smart enough to sterilize as soon as it arrived) and did his own modified hanging hair test.
In place of the hair coming down on the razor... The razor would meet the hair which was held infront of the mirror.
Yes... Your right looking at the hair infront of me and the image of all of me behind it I waked that...."finger"... And waked it well. Razor was sharp enough. Last time I tried to cut any hair not attached to my body!!

Jimbo, I agree with you on all accounts, BUT I have solved the issue of comparability. Yup! That is right, I have found a way to standardize the test world wide!

Everyone simply send me a few dollars for a standardized test hair and I'll send you one of my standardized unit hairs along with storage and preparation instructions to maintain moisture content

Seriously though, HHT levels have merit, the scientific method goes out the window when someone attempts to compare it or transfer the results beyond their own test bench.

Well said, sir.

Possibly there is science vs. art confusion with this. I could be wrong but I doubt any of us hones a razor the exact same way. Different hones, pressure, angle, attitude, skill level and so forth. How could anyone assume a HHT would provide similar results across a group? I'm with Glen on the personal experience results. I take a hair from my head, hold it in my fingers and touch the razor to it. The result gives me an idea of the quality of the edge based on how I like my edges. It's all very subjective.

Originally Posted by ace

My experience has shown me that shave readiness starts to become an issue only after my 8K Norton. I may use it at this point, but usually just go on to the Naniwa SS 12K. At this point, the blade should be close, and I may test it at this point. But I might just go on to the Gokumyo and do 30 laps and then test it.

If all is well at that point, and it always has been, based on the HHT, I go on to strop the blade 100 laps on my SRD Modular Strop with the Bridle leather pad.

Well, if the above is true, your HHT is useless. Yes, a test that always passes is useless by definition. It's only useful if it sometimes passes and sometimes fails, and you take different actions depending on that.

I, like many others, find hair tests useful - sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't, but I hone for fun. However I did pay attention when we learned about measures, so mumbo-jimbo references on ordinal scales don't scare me. Still, ask any pundit or semi-successful politician - nominal scales are the gold standard

Originally Posted by gugi

Well, if the above is true, your HHT is useless. Yes, a test that always passes is useless by definition. It's only useful if it sometimes passes and sometimes fails, and you take different actions depending on that.

I, like many others, find hair tests useful - sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't, but I hone for fun. However I did pay attention when we learned about measures, so mumbo-jimbo references on ordinal scales don't scare me. Still, ask any pundit or semi-successful politician - nominal scales are the gold standard

I can't speak to the HHT always being passed, for, as you point out, a test that cannot fail is not informative. I can say that I've never taken a blade through the Naniwa SS 12K and on to the Gokumyo 20K that was unable to pass the HHT. Not only that, but they all delivered great shaves (thus, I suppose, passing the "shave test" as well).

Far from "useless", if my HHT has successfully predicted great shaves on every occasion, it seems to me to be of considerable value. I cannot be sure that my blades will always pass the HHT, but I'll know not to shave with them when they don't without having to shave to find that out.