Thread: Interesting Perspective on the State of American Manhood

WhiskerHarvest has thrown out two key words a few posts back that I would like to expand upon.

I personally believe a lack of these two words from society in America is what has caused much of the degradation in culture our society has seen crop up over the last several decades. I wasn't alive to see several of those decades (I'm only 30), however, having the perspective of my grandfather, who was born in 1918, and hearing some of the things he used to tell, I believe that there is a huge difference in the way we as a nation act between then and now.

I believe a lack of these two words has contributed to the notion that men aren't men today, in particularly young men. The older generations not so much. In fact, the "real men" of older generations are now simply thought of as old fashioned by the younger generations because they display these two words.

I believe that the near absence of these two words is what has caused divides between political, racial, age and gender lines.

I believe that a vast majority of the issues we face today (all of the ones previously mentioned by others in this thread- tolerance, gender, etc.) have been brought into being because we just don't simply exercise these two words.

I believe that the majority of the laws on our books were written because we as a society demonstrate less and less of these two words every year. If the tides turned, we might be able to repeal many of these laws and enjoy more freedoms and liberties.

I believe every man, woman and child on the planet, not just in this nation, should exhibit these two words in their daily lives. If they did, the world would be a much better place.

What are these two words, you ask?



Personal responsibility.

Originally Posted by WhiskerHarvest

Unfortunately here in America we have pushed so hard for diversity that the existing culture in America has become obscured. Furthermore, by reclassifying everybody into smaller groups that can be identified by race, religion, age or any other category we have created a more segregated society. So, instead of focusing on common ground similarities and then accepting the differences we have been told how different we all are and the relationships between people have been strained prior to ever existing. I would like to see more education on commonalities instead of just the differences.

I couldn’t agree more. In fact, I’ll go one step further. First, I think its important to dispel the notion that multiculturism is necessarily a good thing. This is not an attack on anyone but or a statement of intolerance. Its simply a statement about the benefits of a true melting pot society. Yes, we come from different backgrounds to be Americans without the hyphen. This does not mean that people abandon their heritage but embrace a new one. When multiculturism is spoken lovingly of, I often wonder where this utipia of harmonious combining of cultures exists. I see it more like you do in that I see it promoting segregation and ultimately distrust. Our own American experience with multiculturism has failed. The mere fact that this court case was so prominently covered stands testament to that. If the case were of two people of similar race, it would have never caught the eye of anyone or viewed as significant. Three generations ago my people came to the US from Europe. They did not speak the language and had their own customs and traditions. My line of work has me in contact with people from all over the globe and when I come across someone from the area of Europe my people came from, they often ask me things in other languages or assume I have some lingering appreciation for their customs and ways. They are often slightly deflated when I explain to them that the language is one of my forefathers not mine – I’m an American. And their customs and traditions are not necessarily mine.

Originally Posted by gugi

May be tolerance is the only thing you can get, or at least the first step where you start. What the vast majority of people understand by 'beliefs' is something that they are to hold onto at any cost, not something to examine and revise. Take any religion and see its official doctrine about non-believers - the attitude is at best of a 'second rate' people who could be converted and absorbed into the 'right way'. And the common practice is worse, not better than the official doctrine. 'Loving acceptance' is only good for the 'shared parts', anything that is not shared such as beliefs, traditions, lifestyle is not on the acceptable list.

I agree that tolerance can be a gateway for a person to further develop by examining the beliefs they harbor about a group. The evolution of that would be a deeper appreciation for all people regardless of the differences. You can't love parts of a person! It's all or nothing in my experience or else you are not truly acting on the concept of loving acceptance. Now as I mentioned above I don't want to truly debate this topic. I wanted to interject what I hoped was a fresh view point from personal experience.

I do feel the need to say that many religions do tend to view any outside member as possible converts unfortunately. The result of that has been catastrophic to the true teachings of my faith, in my opinion. I prefer to live my life as an example and only discuss the finer points of my faith with people who are genuinely interested. A person's choice to believe in a higher power is a personal one that needs much consideration. Coercion and brow beating tend to drive most people away from any subject!

The problem is inherent in religion, it is almost by definition about what makes the followers of that religion special, i.e. different from the non-followers.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

This does not mean that people abandon their heritage but embrace a new one.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

They are often slightly deflated when I explain to them that the language is one of my forefathers not mine – I’m an American. And their customs and traditions are not necessarily mine.

To me this sounds exactly as abandoning one's heritage in order to form a cohesive society.

Of course, this is something as old as our civilization - but it's the most primitive form of creating homogeneity. In its ugliest form it was done through things like ethnic cleansing, but there are also historical examples of less violent assimilation (more carrots and less sticks).

You will notice, though, that the hyphens from the big waves of immigration in this country have happened not so much because somebody was trying to form a multicultural society, but rather as a reaction to the oppression of the newcomers from the already established groups.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I couldn’t agree more. In fact, I’ll go one step further. First, I think its important to dispel the notion that multiculturism is necessarily a good thing. This is not an attack on anyone but or a statement of intolerance. Its simply a statement about the benefits of a true melting pot society. Yes, we come from different backgrounds to be Americans without the hyphen. This does not mean that people abandon their heritage but embrace a new one. When multiculturism is spoken lovingly of, I often wonder where this utipia of harmonious combining of cultures exists. I see it more like you do in that I see it promoting segregation and ultimately distrust. Our own American experience with multiculturism has failed. The mere fact that this court case was so prominently covered stands testament to that. If the case were of two people of similar race, it would have never caught the eye of anyone or viewed as significant. Three generations ago my people came to the US from Europe. They did not speak the language and had their own customs and traditions. My line of work has me in contact with people from all over the globe and when I come across someone from the area of Europe my people came from, they often ask me things in other languages or assume I have some lingering appreciation for their customs and ways. They are often slightly deflated when I explain to them that the language is one of my forefathers not mine – I’m an American. And their customs and traditions are not necessarily mine.

I couldn't agree more. The notion that we are different groups of people living harmoniously together is a sham. We have been compromised at the very core of what made this country great, unity. When will Americans just be Americans? Dividing us into groups doesn't work well and now we see that gang mentality starting to become prevalent in American society.

Men have the ability to change this country by leading and living with more integrity. To answer your other question posted earlier about men in this country, I think that many men lack respect. Respect for each other, for their family's, especially their wives and respect for themselves. I find many older gents much more respectful than younger men, well men my age!

Originally Posted by earcutter

Well I took a second and did a little search... The American Spectator, is like so many things written here in the US, merely an opinion piece. So all the rants as to the story being poor journalism go out the window. Its just one mans opinion... And though his leaps may be just that, leaps , his concerns resonate for me. YMMV.

Mr Earcutter,

I understand that the article resonates with you but opinion without some support is just for rabble rousing which I cannot stand. It is one of my pet peeves. I am in someway sympathetic to some of the points of the article but his evidence was terrible. It is just as bad as some of the feminist critiques I had to read as a graduate student. Plus, if I wrote a paper like that I would get reamed by instructors, not just the feminist.

Wow, so this has turned into a debate about multiculturalism. Well, the fact is we are multicultural. We cannot turn that page back. So what are we gonna do about it? Act like a bunch of monkeys fighting over some bananas.

I recently attended a glass blowing class and the head instructor first shook everyone’s hand and ran his gnarled fingers over their hand. When he got to me he looked me in the eye and asked what I did for a living. I told him and he said, you didn’t get those hands doing that.

Later we talked and he said it was his way of judging a person’s capabilities. He would be entrusting them with a glob of molten glass on a 5 foot pipe and needed to know just how much trust to allow that person.

My son, grandson and I are restoring a classic muscle car, most of my son’s friends who are in their 30 & 40 have muscle cars, but none of them actually work on them. They pay someone to do that for them.

It is not just the US that has developed a class of people that has learned how to avoid work and trust only in technology. It is this learned behavior that allowed 4 trained pilots to allow technology to fly a Jetliner into the ground here in California the other day.

The saving grace is that there appears to be a resurgence of people, or maybe they have always been there, looking to learn how thing were done before computers, CNC water jets and Mach 20 razors were around and places like here were they can learn to do for themselves.

Perhaps not all is lost and some are actually attempting to climb out of the hand basket, and we have become the generation that, when I first came on the job complained, about the “New Breed.”

Originally Posted by gugi

The problem is inherent in religion, it is almost by definition about what makes the followers of that religion special, i.e. different from the non-followers.

Remember, it goes both ways. By using the label of religion you have made a division too.You have formed a line not the religion. The problem is inherent in mankind, religion just happens to be one of the ways humans organize themselves. It is no different than nationality, ethnicity, sport teams, KKK, skin heads, and so on.

AFAIK, there has never been much unity among ethnic groups in this country. From what I can tell, it's better today than at any point in history.

I used to work in a town that had a booming iron mine from the early to mid 20th century. People from all over the world settling in the United States came to work in the mine. I learned from the locals that the town was pretty well split up into regions, and each nationality had their own settlement. Fights over the borders of these settlements were common.

I think it was probably World War II that settled that down.