Thread: Killing of Australian baseball player

I better GOOGLE "Duff" first before I agree to this.

Originally Posted by Hirlau

I better GOOGLE "Duff" first before I agree to this.

Umm, you HAVE seen the TV show The Simpsons, haven't you?

Gents,
when I heard about my countrymans' murder, we felt very sad, for both the victim, his family and friends, and his host country who was looking after our kid. Both our countries have their social problems, frustrated under privileged people living crap lives and the associated problems. I have had one or two mates who have come from pretty shitty backgrounds and have risen by their own bootstraps to make a success of their lives, both family wise and career wise. Right and wrong are universal values, even your pet dog knows this.
I guess with regard to senseless violence, some just have no regard for anything and are beyond redemption. Give them a fair trial and then hang them, at least they will not do it again. I guess some people just do bad things because they have the opportunity and can, for no other reason than that. Reckless disregard for consequences, these people are just plain bad. Bad people can come from any sort of socio economic background, and family life, in saying that the better the personal circumstance the less chance of going bad I suspect. How do you prevent this sort of thing, I guess it cannot be prevented, but perhaps considerably reduced, by how each of us live our lives and treat others, and have the strength to pull up someone who is going off the rails, to at least give him a shove in the right direction. Like Nessmuck, I to grew up watching violence on tv, handled firearms from the age of 6 and was taught the consequence of my actions by my literally Victorian age father ( he was 50 when he had me) and have a very strong sense of personal responsibility drummed in at a ver young age.
It comes down to personal choice, you will lead a decent productive life or you chose not to.

Cheers

Heelerau

Originally Posted by heelerau

...Right and wrong are universal values, even your pet dog knows this...

I'm re-thinking myself that right and wrong are universal. If by this you are saying we all know' deep inside' whjat is right or wrong, I've recently been re-considering this. I read an excellent paper recently titled The Emotional Dog and Its rational Tail (Haidt) and it was very interesting.

It was interesting to read that people use logic to argue for and justify their judgements about moral dilemmas. However, it was found that this justification; this reasoning, is done AFTER the judgement has already been made; the logical reasoning is a much slower process than the actual judging.

It is argued that we use reasoning to argue for the outcome we WANT, 'like a lawyer defending a client rather than a judge seeking the truth'. It was found that people act like 'intuitive lawyers' rather than 'intuitive scientists'. The paper says 'people have quick and automatic moral intuitions, and when called on to justify these intuitions they generate post hoc justifications out of a priori moral theories'.

The paper said 'children are taught surprisingly little in most cultures and they acquire most of their cultural knowledge and expertise by observing and then imitating the practices of older children and adults and informants pressed to explain practices that they themselves learned by observation, imitation and participation generally have to make up concepts that have very tenuous, often imaginary relations with the manner in which the informants themselves actually acquired or generate the actions in question.

My dog knows she's allowed in bed with me and it's perfectly OK to lick my plate when I put it on the floor. I taught her this by not telling her off for it when she did so. My other three dogs possibly learnt that these actions are acceptable by observing Lucy the older dog.

It's possible that we DON'T know what's right or wrong, but we OBSERVE what is right or wrong (acceptable or not acceptable) within our OWN society and then imitate those practices. It's possible that when asked why we do this, we make up moral reasoning arguments like 'if I hit that person then others wouldn't like me and it's (not hitting people all the time) part of the evolutionary process to ensure I get a portion on the dinosaur we all killed today'.

If that's true (that we act by observing others, and just reason after about the whys and wherefores) then it's a little scary. I say this as I'd have to question if it's ONLY what we see 'in real life' that matters (and even a lot of that is pretty scary) but also, what we see on TV, movies, games, etc. If I immerse myself in the gang culture (by hanging out with gang members, playing video games that emulate the culture, listening to the music that may contain hateful lyrics, etc) then maybe I end up just emulating all that. When asked why I did something, maybe I just try and rationalise it by arguing something totally unrelated.

So, after all that, basically I'm agreeing with you that it's how we all live our lives that matters, but, in a way, that goes against the personal choice thing. Kids don't choose the society they grow up in. Can you just imagine how those kids that live with their parents in South American jails must be taught to act and what THEY think is right and wrong?

I guess the next step is intervention, and I think intervention can be via a lot of different methods. I think intervention can also be spiritual, but that's a WHOLE other debate!

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

It's possible that we DON'T know what's right or wrong, but we OBSERVE what is right or wrong (acceptable or not acceptable) within our OWN society and then imitate those practices. It's possible that when asked why we do this, we make up moral reasoning arguments like 'if I hit that person then others wouldn't like me and it's (not hitting people all the time) part of the evolutionary process to ensure I get a portion on the dinosaur we all killed today'.

If that's true (that we act by observing others, and just reason after about the whys and wherefores) then it's a little scary. I say this as I'd have to question if it's ONLY what we see 'in real life' that matters (and even a lot of that is pretty scary) but also, what we see on TV, movies, games, etc. If I immerse myself in the gang culture (by hanging out with gang members, playing video games that emulate the culture, listening to the music that may contain hateful lyrics, etc) then maybe I end up just emulating all that. When asked why I did something, maybe I just try and rationalise it by arguing something totally unrelated.

I'd say that you were on the cusp of the logical philosophical exploration. In the end I think we have to ask where it is that our morality comes from. Is it instinctual? Is it taught? What gives life its value? The fact that someone loves it or hates it? And if we agree that we are seeing an greater insensitivity to any moral compass in society we have to ask what has changed over the years to cause that. Or we can just continue to blame video games.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I'd say that you were on the cusp of the logical philosophical exploration. In the end I think we have to ask where it is that our morality comes from. Is it instinctual? Is it taught? What gives life its value? The fact that someone loves it or hates it? And if we agree that we are seeing an greater insensitivity to any moral compass in society we have to ask what has changed over the years to cause that. Or we can just continue to blame video games.

What has changed for young kids over the years,lets say in the last 30 yrs,easy acsess to drugs,Junk food on every corner, parents that both work.
Nanneys that raise the kids,all these caffine loaded drinks they are fond of,Video games wherby young kids can virtually Kill people.
The list is far longer.
My Kids are 28,38, 44. I thank god I do not have to raise A child in todays world.

Not sure about your part of the world Carl but here it is pretty simple

Google

Mood Enhancement drug use increase, look at some of the numbers...

Bear in mind this does not include illicit drugs,, it also does NOT include those same drugs that are prescribed for Weight Loss, Sleeping, and to Quit Smoking same drugs same side effects but different uses..
Now add in the Drugs they are prescribing kids in school..

Take all those drugs, plus the Video Games and Mass Media input from Music, TV and Movies...

Shake that all around with the talking morons on the News spewing hate and you have American Society

Oh yeah lets not forget the just plain evil out there that simply need no reason

I'm off to play some Grand Theft Auto and drink a heavily caffienated beverage.

Hopefully I won't murder anyone tomorrow.

Originally Posted by HNSB

I'm off to play some Grand Theft Auto and drink a heavily caffienated beverage.

Hopefully I won't murder anyone tomorrow.

But if you do you are setting up a good defense, call me if you need a character witness to say yer crazy I'm there for ya pal

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I'd say that you were on the cusp of the logical philosophical exploration. In the end I think we have to ask where it is that our morality comes from. Is it instinctual? Is it taught? What gives life its value? The fact that someone loves it or hates it? And if we agree that we are seeing an greater insensitivity to any moral compass in society we have to ask what has changed over the years to cause that. Or we can just continue to blame video games.

I don't think it's instinct, myself. I don't think it's simply part of an evolutionary process. I do feel it's taught. Different cultures have different rules and value different things. Generally, I'd say that most cultures value human life. Maybe when one is so fed up with one's existence one starts to value human life (others' or one's own) less. I'm not blaming video games by themselves, I'd blame a LOT of things. I'd even blame our shallow, consumerist 'me' focussed lives, and a move from more 'traditional' family values. Many, many times I wish I was an Amish person, I think I'd get used to no computer, etc pretty quickly...