Thread: Sad happenings in the UK

From an article on the Brits turning in their knives,,, to those dang Yankees & their Guns,,,,

Acually I must disagree with Saunders. I am 57 and when I was younger everyone believed that they had the individual right to protect themselves with firearms as they do today

Originally Posted by 32t

My point is how much manufactured fear is there? I am afraid of icy roads and my government salts them. Fine and I can pay my taxes to support them. But if I need to label my 5 gallon buckets to prevent some kid from drowning that is to much.

Thanks. I actually did understand your point. Mine was that no matter how manufactured you may feel the current fear level is with a government in place it would be exponentially worse without one. Plus your fears would be more intense as they would be based on a real and present danger all around you.

As for the bucket. Don't blame that one on the government. That's squarely on the shoulders of the "blameless society" that we've all contributed to in one way or another over the past 2 or 3 generations. Sprinkle in a few class actions law suites and you end up with bucket labels.

Been away from the thread for a while. Intended to let it be because of the politics warning, but I feel certain things need to be addressed. So, here goes.

Originally Posted by Kristian

Well guys, then don't move to Denmark. Here weapons are forbidden. No one carry guns. Even knifes are forbidden, and in some zones in the biggest city's the police have rights to visitations of any citizen.

The politicians even made a knife law forbidden small pucketknifes and razors. Razors are legal again thou.

Even the police don't carry dangerous guns, by American standards. They do have guns, but seldom use them. Whenever a gun is used by the police, the incident are investigated by court, and the police officer are suspended while the investigation goes on.

We don't have mass murders, or wild shootings.

Violence are very low and there's hardly any murders.

We do have gangs and criminals, but they seldom attack normal citizens.

Last year a terrorist attacked two targets in Copenhagen, killing two persons, before the police shot him. He used a automatic rifle, so criminals can get guns if they want to apparently.

All this put aside, Danes regards American weapon laws as pure stupidity.

I don't judge anybody.

I own two Japanese katanas. I have a weapon license for these. I don't carry them in public of cause [emoji4] an I have many razors.

I personally don't understand the need to own automatic guns, or pistols that can kill large hippos. - but that just me. I practice martial art, and so does my two girls ages 11 and 14. God help the bastard trying to attack them.

We have soldiers fighting fore freedom and democracy in Syria and other middle east states. Their enemies, ISIL and ISIS are among other weapons using American guns. Now that's a real problem.

Why on earth are USA selling weapons to these maniacs?

Saying all this, the Danes are the happiest people in the world. And some of the richest. We work very hard, but only about 45 hours a week. Most people only 37 hours, which is the norm.

6 weeks holiday every year. Pension paid by the state from age 65.

It is possible to live without guns.

However I don't think Danish solutions would work in US. You have to find your own way.

I just wanted to show you another view on your debate.

Just to enlighten you on the American perspective...

Our police are trained to use theirs as a last resort as well - it isn't supposed to be their go-to. When they do use them, the incidents are investigated. In most circumstances, when an officer does use their firearm, they are investigated by an outside agency so the officers investigating are at least somewhat impartial and not trying to cover for a buddy of theirs.

In a safe place like yours perhaps I could live without a gun, but you will never take my pocket knife. I was given my first knife and hone at 8 years old, I've carried one ever since. That is intended to be tongue in cheek humor, but I am only halfway kidding. I am more attached to my pocket knives than I am to hunting rifles, or my pistol which I do have training and a license to carry. A pistol is only good for self defense, a small pocket knife is so utilitarian I can't fathom why everyone doesn't have one in their pocket at all times.

I wish I could answer why we sold those maniacs their guns. Just like I wish I knew why our politicians saw fit to sell guns to Mexican drug cartels. Both of those are against not only US policy, but are blatantly illegal for any citizen of the US, and I do not understand how no one was brought up on charges for either instance - government employee or otherwise.

That said, I'm glad your country is peaceful enough that you don't have a need for firearms. I sincerely hope that things never change in your neck of the woods. Perhaps it is time we do an in depth study on what you Danes do differently that keeps these events from happening to begin with. A thought occurred to me though, you say you have a ban on knives. This is just a ban on carrying them in public correct? I'm assuming you folks still have knives for your kitchens and work purposes? What's really stopping someone with the mind to from carrying their kitchen knives outside their home and committing an atrocity? I ask because the last mass murder in the US occurred in a state where many of the things they did were banned, but the laws didn't stop them. Heck, it didn't even slow them down.

But do remember, the second amendment isn't necessarily about defending yourself or your property, it's about defending your state and your country. Much like the Swiss I believe it is, that require every citizen to serve the military for a term then sends them home with their service weapon.

The founding fathers granted our citizens the right to a well regulated militia - the definition of well regulated has changed in the past few hundred years since that phrase was written. Back then, something 'well regulated' would be more along the lines of 'adjusted for accurate and proper functioning.' Suffice to say that for a militia to be in proper functioning order for military service (this country was not originally intended to have a standing army - that changed because of the civil war and both world wars) you need a military grade rifle. More on this later...

Originally Posted by JOB15

There are bad people out there with guns, they kill students in school , whole classes.

Therefore you must suffer for these wack jobs and give up your guns.

Take one for the team man...

If I lived in USA I'd have an armoury . I love weapons , nukes too. However I can still see a problem that needs to be fixed. (It never will, I know that)

One does not need a gun for that. There are countless instances from countries that do not allow their citizens firearms. Here's a small list of them, but rest assured there are many more:

A note on mass victim knife attacks: a single, very small 16 year old was able to wound at least 24 people with a knife in just 5 minutes - Crime Prevention Research CenterCrime Prevention Research Center

I said it before, I will say it again - it does not matter what weapon is used. If someone walks into a place with defenseless people that have no knowledge of self defense, no will to fight, and nowhere to run they could go in armed with a rock in each hand and do a staggering amount of damage in a short amount of time. Particularly if they work in groups.

Originally Posted by Phrank

There was an article in the Canadian newspaper, "The Globe and Mail", that presents a case that the, "right to bear arms" was in fact never a part of the US Constitution, that it is only recently that the idea that "individuals", rather than the "collective" have the right to arm themselves individually.

I don't purport to be even vaguely familiar with the American Constitution, but I'd thought I'd share this article as food for thought/discussion. I'll cut and paste one small section and provide a link to the article. I found it interesting, but have no context in regards to it.

Here's the link to the article:

How U.S. gun ownership became a ‘right,’ and why it isn’t - The Globe and Mail

And here's a soundbite from it - certainly interesting...

"Until 2002, every U.S. president and government had declared that the Constitution’s Second Amendment did not provide any individual right for ordinary citizens to own firearms. Rather, it meant what its text clearly states: that firearms shall be held by “the People” – a collective, not individual right – insofar as they are in the service of “a well-regulated militia.”

There had not, up to that point, been much ambiguity about this. “For 218 years,” legal scholar Michael Waldman writes in his book The Second Amendment: A Biography, “judges overwhelmingly concluded that the amendment authorized states to form militias, what we now call the National Guard,” and did not contain any individual right to own firearms.

The U.S. Supreme Court had never, until 2008, suggested even once that there was any such right. Warren Burger, the arch-conservative Supreme Court justice appointed by Richard Nixon, in an interview in 1991 described the then-new idea of an individual right to bear arms as “one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

The full unabridged text of the second amendment reads as follows,

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Notice the bolded part, and specifically the underlined part. It was never specified as an individual right before 2008 because it was understood - and never questioned - as an individual right to keep and bear arms. There is literally no other place in the entire US constitution where the phrase, "the people," does not define a right held by the individual. Do not be fooled by that comma between, "...a free state..." and, "...the right of the people..." The writings of the founding fathers are just as clear on that section of the constitution as they are on freedom of speech, right to peaceably assemble, right to a fair and timely trial by jury of peers, etc. See the following:

“Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American… The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.” – Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

If that wasn't clear enough, look at the current standing law of the United States defining precisely who is the militia as per US code 311 Militia: composition and classes;

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

That's just the cliff's notes on the subject matter. The person writing your article needs to bone up on their history. They got it dead wrong, and the Supreme Court should NEVER have needed to reaffirm that it's an individual right.

But, all of that is neither here nor there. I do not believe that the UK has a knife problem. I believe they have a criminal problem - and it doesn't matter what they ban, until that problem is solved they will still have a criminal problem. The criminals will just change to the next most common, available, and easily obtained tool to commit their crimes.

Ugh...Saunders tried to pin Thomas Jefferson as indicating it was a collective/state's right!? No, just...no.

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." --Thomas Jefferson to J. Cartwright, 1824.

The truth is actually the reverse. The idea that it is solely a state's right, or a collective/federal right, is what is new. Everything in Saunder's article is revisionist history at it's finest. I am not just a denizen of the United States, I am a Virginian - one of the original 13 colonies that founded this nation. Our state has (or had until recently, not sure what shape it's in now) a very strong history program regarding the founding of this nation. He wasn't right on a single point in that article.

Marshall I'll try to explain all perspectives on the Danish knifes ban.

First. Denmark is a real nation thou rather small. We are the size of New York State, but only hold a population of 5,5 mil. We're mainly one ethnical group, Danes, thou in resent years a growing number of refugees mainly from middle east and Africa are settling down. Perhaps as many as 500.000. Their culture is very different, which has given root to many conflicts in recent time.

The knife ban was instituted after a series of violent knife attacks in the night, where younger emigrants stabbed younger Danes, or the other way around.

The ban forbids all kind of knifes in public, carried on the person. Pucketknifes, hunting knifes, Scout knifes are the most controversial. The last two went legal again after months of public debate. But only when they are used in the right purpose. A scout can only wear his knife when he is attending scout training.

Thou Denmark is a forest nation and is happens quite often, that animals are hid by cars, it's illegal for me to hold a knife in my car to kill a animal if I crash into it. That's just crazy, since I now has to find a big stone or something to put the animal out of its misery.

Even work knifes are illegal. If a electrician has a knife on him, when stopped by the police, he risks imprisonment or a great fine. His knife needs to be locked in a back in his car, if he isn't using it on work. That's crazy to.

I hone knifes and razors, beside my regular job. I therefore have a licence to transport knifes in my car, as long they are securely packed away in the trunk.

I thinks it is crazy to need a licence for such a thing.

Nothing prevent a idiot from using a chef knife for a murder. But to be fair, it would be troublesome to commit mass murder with a knife, as people would flee.

An seeing a man carrying a chef knife in public would pretty fast alert the police.

The terrorist attack last year, was committed with a automatic rifle, illegal in Denmark. Only military has them. How he got his rifle is still being investigated, but he properly bought it it another European country on the black market? Who knows?

I don't believe that giving ordinary Danes weapons would have prevented the attack, or pretend someone would have shot him before his atrocity. Only armed police, well trained could do that.

The Danish no weapon policy leaves many problems fore ordinary people, but we don't have shootings, no school massacres ( but that has nothing to do with weapons. No one in Denmark could dream of committing a crime against a school. Most people has a reel good experience from childhood in the Danish school system, which by the way is the must expensive in the world.)

Whenever there's a gang related crime, the gang members normally only shot themselves. Yes they sometimes has guns.

By my knowledge no gang related crime has been committed against the public in years. The fight is against Hells Angels and immigrants gangs, fighting for drugs markets.

I hope this clarify things.

We have a open society. Everyone can go in every public building they want. Our royals and politicians walks on the street without bodyguards. Enfant children sleeps unattended in their Pram on the street, while their mothers do housecleaning in the flat. There has never been a crime relate to children in our history.

Our weapons ban, has kept us safe for years. But it doesn't solve the terrorist problem. Allowing weapons isn't the solution, so we have to find another one.

There is really no discussion to be had here , it is what it is.

Definitely try to get the Guns n Knives off the streets though.

Haha, Kristian - I know that Denmark is a real country. Contrary to popular belief, we do have maps with other countries on them here in America! I hope my last post did not come off as snark or sarcastic, such was not my intent. I was serious when I said perhaps we should look at what you folks do differently on a societal level that is reducing violence in your country and copy that.

For the record, we have had criminals attempt mass shootings here that did get stopped by armed civilians. Regular joes can do it to. And I agree that your knife laws are overboard, though to be fair similar things can happen here. In my state I am licensed to carry a concealed pistol, but this does not extend to knives. Pocket knives are fine to carry hidden in a pocket, larger knives for hunting must be worn in plain view. If an officer found a knife laying on my passenger seat in plain view I would be fine. Toss a book or shopping bag over that same knife, and now it's a concealed weapon and that could get an illegal weapons charge. This to me is a little silly. Our nation also has many hunters, and skilled trades that require such tools and laws like this do burden people that mean no harm unnecessarily.

All that said, I have no intent or place to tell Denmark or the UK how to run things. As someone that has grown up with the right and responsibility of self defense, and has been shooting since his grandfather taught him to use a bb gun at 4 years old, your laws do seem foreign and quite strange to me. But if they work for you, and your people, that is great! I just hope our politicians don't get any funny ideas about copying them.

If anything, we need to be copying what your society does differently. The amount of money you spend on school, the way your children are taught in school. Get back to the 40 hour work week we used to have so parents can be parents again, rather than being a cashier first and a parent second. Start early and steer children toward college and apprenticeships and away from gangs and violence. Fight employers for a living wage rather than a minimum wage. There are things to be learned from Denmark that could have a great and positive impact here, even if I do not necessarily agree with your weapons laws.

Marshal

Yes, I think you pointed out the crux of the problem of violence in any country is a societal issue by and large. Only by addressing those issues can you start to make a country less violent. The control of the tools of the trade, so to speak, is a part of it also but not the major part.

That is why I said earlier that all you have to do is look at the murder rates per capita of English speaking countries to see how they all came from a common root but developed differently as societies as they matured.

Bob

We should remember that there are many of us in the US sill like our country and do not look at others as some sort of perfect heaven. I am pleased if you love yours but do not think that all of us want your laws and customs(except food...we want your food) We have problems i.e. The foolish idea that we can import democracy etc.

I also know that statistics touted by most are either outright lies or so easily manipulated to be meaningless. I have been a government worker for 28 years. It is not difficult.

I hope that you are never the victim of radical Islam or other such terror acts, but if you think your knife and gun laws will prevent it, you are laboring under a questionable belief.

I sort of admire yet question many of your faith in your government. We have many here that do. I am not among them. When at a loss for another lie to tell, our politicians parade the flag stating we are the greatest country in the world and ignore the issue. I doubt yours are any better.

I love the freedoms we have and would like more freedom and less taxes.

We are not perfect but I have doubts that your country is either. It is great that we have this medium to discuss these things.

Remember, all democracies are doomed to fail. The more we transition from a republic to a democracy the closer we come to a dictatorship.