Thread: Mans Intelligence

Originally Posted by mhailey

Justin, Mark, You two are going to break out in dueling banjos.

And we were saving that surprise for another thread!

Okay, I was out for all of last week, and so am getting into this thread a little late. However, I would like to interject, and provide my thoughts. Also, I have briefly perused this thread, and have not read all posts in detail.

IMHO, all men (as all animals) begin their life very selfishly, and only think of themselves. They then grow out of this phase when they realize that there is more to this life than their own fulfillment (except when it comes to shaving). All mammals go through this process. Think of how a bear when it is young acts only in its best interest, but once there are cubs, this bear will take on anything to protect them. Some men go through this process faster than others. However, not all men reach this point. Drug addicts are so fueled by their desire to satisfy the need for the high that they think of nothing else than themselves. In fact, I would go so far as to say that when a person does not progress to the altruistic stage, it is due to an addiction. Be it addicted to drugs, power, sex, or money. Addiction kills the natural progression and development of a person.

Government would not be necessary if all people followed the natural progression from selfish to altruistic, but, alas, not all people follow this progression.

As we all know, the base actions of a few that have not become altruistic can silence and rule those that have. Take the gangsters (either the type on The Sopranos or from the 30's, or even the Russian Mafia). Without some entity beyond the scope of these organizations, society would be ruled by them. Do not get me wrong, I am a firm supporter of small government, but government does have its place.

Part of the place of Government is to protect its citizens from threats, both internal and external, including foreign nations, and groups. Of the allegation that people were simply put on jets and flown to other countries when they asserted their rights is false. Those people were foreign nationals, as are those held in Guantanamo Bay. These people are not protected under the Geneva Convention nor the Constitution.

I also feel that what is "altruistic" also depends upon the paradigm you have developed. The Europeans vs. Americans vs. Canadians vs. Latin Americans have a totally different view on what a person should be responsible for, and how far a person has to develop.

I came across this:

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

I came across this:

Jaeger-dude:

I find it extremely unusual to see something that coherent and sensible come out of an elected official!

Thanks for posting it, Justin.

-whatever

-Lou

Originally Posted by scarface

Jaeger-dude:

I find it extremely unusual to see something that coherent and sensible come out of an elected official!

Thanks for posting it, Justin.

-whatever

-Lou

You're welcome --- I thought it was short,sweet, and framed up nicely what I think Mark is getting at. I think it taps in to an almost forgotten ideal of what America , the concept, is ---- the founding fathers were truly enlightened.

Justin

I read it and I agree.

Now, no insult is meant but if you hold these values to be so important (as I agree they are) when will you try to take them back from the current administration?

Bush is the figurehead for a lot of directives that go directly against the constitution. In the name of the war against terrorism, the US government can
- arrest you without cause
- hold you indefinitely without bringing charges
- take away your right to an attorney, or even the right to be heard.
- send you to another country to be 'interrogated'.
- freeze all your assets without recourse if you are even suspected of having contact with terrorists.

There is all this talk about how important the constitution is, and how people have unalienatable (is that a word?) rights.
But from what I can see, people are happy enough just to stand aside and let the government do whatever as long as it gives them a false sense of security.

'I am not a terrorist so I have nothing to fear.' does not apply. There are people who have been captured, held for months or years, tortured, deprived of all contact, and when someone finally got a clue to their innocence, they got plonked out on the street without an explanation or even an acknowledgement that mistakes were made.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Are you standing aside or are you doing something?

Who says I don't have problems with it, Bruno. One of my first worries since 9/11 has been the over reaching arms of government ---by the way there are plenty of conservatives in this country that do not believe Bush is a true conservative and his actions are more in line with liberal notions of government power and some idealism of spreading democracy.

But I hope you don't believe this is the first time that the U.S. government has suspended certain rights (freedoms) because of the severity of the situation. Abraham Lincoln , who by many is considered the greatest American president of all time did this considerably to help preserve the Union --- and he did preserve the Union.

So I have worries. And I have worries about an effective means of fighting terrorism.

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson071107.html

and since I would like to spread the criticism around a little :

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson100306.html

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Who says I don't have problems with it, Bruno. One of my first worries since 9/11 has been the over reaching arms of government ---by the way there are plenty of conservatives in this country that do not believe Bush is a true conservative and his actions are more in line with liberal notions of government power and some idealism of spreading democracy.

But I hope you don't believe this is the first time that the U.S. government has suspended certain rights (freedoms) because of the severity of the situation. Abraham Lincoln , who by many is considered the greatest American president of all time did this considerably to help preserve the Union --- and he did preserve the Union.

So I have worries. And I have worries about an effective means of fighting terrorism.

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson071107.html

and since I would like to spread the criticism around a little :

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson100306.html

Dude -

You're my hero.

-whatever

-Lou

Originally Posted by scarface

Dude -

You're my hero.

-whatever

-Lou

I'm not worthy --- but I will take cash or gifts. .

Thanks Mr. Lou (and now I'm off to save the day)

Justin

Originally Posted by Bruno

I read it and I agree.

Now, no insult is meant but if you hold these values to be so important (as I agree they are) when will you try to take them back from the current administration?

Bush is the figurehead for a lot of directives that go directly against the constitution. In the name of the war against terrorism, the US government can
- arrest you without cause
- hold you indefinitely without bringing charges
- take away your right to an attorney, or even the right to be heard.
- send you to another country to be 'interrogated'.
- freeze all your assets without recourse if you are even suspected of having contact with terrorists.

There is all this talk about how important the constitution is, and how people have unalienatable (is that a word?) rights.
But from what I can see, people are happy enough just to stand aside and let the government do whatever as long as it gives them a false sense of security.

'I am not a terrorist so I have nothing to fear.' does not apply. There are people who have been captured, held for months or years, tortured, deprived of all contact, and when someone finally got a clue to their innocence, they got plonked out on the street without an explanation or even an acknowledgement that mistakes were made.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Are you standing aside or are you doing something?

I will not say whether I agree or not because that is not what this thread was intended for! I will say however, Bruno, that you are being a bit presumptuous.

Now, lets get back to business. No more finger wagging!