Thread: Drill here, drill now, pay less!

Originally Posted by Amyn

... Oh wait we can probably say the same for "W", $520 billion dollars at $2 billion dollars a week for the last 5 years imagine what we could have done with that money (use it to really solve our energy crisis)
...Oh wait but Rummy (Mr "you don't know what you don't know") said it would cost only 50-60 billion....
...Oh wait then who is going to pay for all the debt we have "unwittingly" acquired ...
...Oh wait our kids and grands kid will take care of that...
...Oh wait let me ask little johnny who is barely out of his diapers. Well Johnny what do you say....
...Oh wait wait what's that smell...
...Oh crap....I thought little Johnny was potty trained...

Obviously "W" learned at Uncle Ronny's knee as a youth...

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

And this is the nature of our disagreement. The Earth provides people with the opportunity to better themselves through technology and also gives them the option to live without it. Government is meant to protect those options because people, left on their own, will take your clean water so they can have it for themselves. Just because The Earth offers an animalistic minimalist lifestyle doesn't mean it's the only right way to live. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages and the right to choose ought to be protected. Even primitive societies use tools, and tools give way to more tools, and eventually those societies will be asking for oil. That's just the way it is and we have to figure out the best way to handle it.

I disagree. The usage of tools does not always lead to more tools and exploitation for oil. There are many cultures on this earth who lived for thousands and thousands of years without that need and were much smarter and wiser than any in our current culture. Your vision of people is limited to what you have been taught in our culture’s schools. It is not the way it is, it is the way that we have MADE it. My point is still valid. Oil is not a necessity of life, and it's usage has actually led to the destruction of life.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

What's wrong with drilling here now to sustain the health of the economy while people figure out how to solve the problem? Do you think people will stop trying to find alternate energy sources if we start drilling here?

Yes, that's exactly what we're saying. Until we accept the fact that, global warming aside, petroleum for energy is a dying technology, market forces will never, ever push for alternatives. Given global warming and the rest, it makes far more sense to stop drilling now. To add another source of oil right now will only have the effect of making SUVs popular again.

We're not saying that oil technology will make the earth uninhabitable. We're only saying that it will make it uninhabitable for us.

j

Originally Posted by DSailing

I disagree. The usage of tools does not always lead to more tools and exploitation for oil.

It does always happen, just not with every group of people. There will always be a group that seeks to go beyond their current technology though, and those groups end up converting (destroying) The Earth's resources for higher standards of living. It won't equate to happiness for many, but on average it will be a higher standard of living in today's world.

There are many cultures on this earth who lived for thousands and thousands of years without that need and were much smarter and wiser than any in our current culture.

Maybe so. But if they were, and they weren't smart enough to solve today's problems, then we are doomed. What dumbed them? How are we different than them? Which of them stood up and said, "I reject wisdom, I will go off and create a new civilization based on stupidity and war and destruction"? This is just the way people are. Every civilization has its wise, its violent, its powerful, its pawns, and its innovators which do whatever they can to be wise, violent, powerful, etc. You can't blame that on oil, it's just part of life. Maybe not yours or mine, but it affects us and we can't expect to force our ideals on them. But we can get some oil, some guns, and some persuasive literature to protect our ideals from the nutcases if need be.

Your vision of people is limited to what you have been taught in our culture’s schools. It is not the way it is, it is the way that we have MADE it.

The way we have made it is the way it is I can only directly make MY own choices, and can only influence others. I can't force others to live the way I want them to. I can force the bears to let me do what I want. I can't force the Eskimos or the Iraqis.

My point is still valid. Oil is not a necessity of life, and it's usage has actually led to the destruction of life.

I agree with that. But that doesn't mean drilling here and now won't help

If you are willing to kill off the bears, disrupt the patterns and possibly kill of the caribou for you to drive the SUV cheaply, then I guess I have nothing left to argue about. For me, I as an animal need these other animals to survive. For once we kill off another species; all others are affected by it including ourselves.

It is just not the drilling for oil that is the problem, but the system that requires that oil, the machines to pump that oil, the lives that it disrupts, the land that it destroys, and the air and water that it pollutes. It is a total disrespect and lack of appreciation for life..

I admit that I am enslaved by the system, and I am just as responsible to what is going on as Bush is. No, I didn’t vote for him, but I chose to live life a certain way. For me, that way has changed as I came to realize the preciousness of all life and not just my own, because we depend upon diversity just as much as the other animals on this beautiful planet. I could change my life more drastically, but then probably end up in jail for not paying the forced child support. Not that I disagree with supporting my children, but I am forced to paying into a system that is just as destructive to their life as it is of all life.

Sorry for the rant.

Originally Posted by DSailing

If you are willing to kill off the bears, disrupt the patterns and possibly kill of the caribou for you to drive the SUV cheaply, then I guess I have nothing left to argue about. For me, I as an animal need these other animals to survive. For once we kill off another species; all others are affected by it including ourselves.

I also had a feeling that is one of our differences. I am arrogant enough to think I am separate from the animals, and can trust myself enough to do well by them as well as myself even if they disagree. Will becoming an animal really empower me to make better decisions?

It is just not the drilling for oil that is the problem, but the system that requires that oil, the machines to pump that oil, the lives that it disrupts, the land that it destroys, and the air and water that it pollutes. It is a total disrespect and lack of appreciation for life..

I think it does more good than harm. I'm honest enough with myself to know that I could be convinced otherwise, but I just haven't been All of the woes you list I attribute to human nature by itself. Leave people to themselves and that's what happens.

I admit that I am enslaved by the system, and I am just as responsible to what is going on as Bush is. No, I didn’t vote for him, but I chose to live life a certain way. For me, that way has changed as I came to realize the preciousness of all life and not just my own, because we depend upon diversity just as much as the other animals on this beautiful planet. I could change my life more drastically, but then probably end up in jail for not paying the forced child support. Not that I disagree with supporting my children, but I am forced to paying into a system that is just as destructive to their life as it is of all life.

I understand what you're saying. Your conclusion is a solution that prioritizes your decisions according to your practical needs before your idealistic desires. Am I right to say that? I have a feeling that's what most people do, and that is how most people live their lives. Drilling for oil here and now would make it easier right now to get things done. Ideally, we wouldn't need oil at all. But because of the decisions you, I, and the whole world has made, it really would do a lot more good than harm at this present time.

I think it is our nature to love not destroy. It is our teaching in our culture that teaches us to hate and destroy, because civilization can not survive otherwise. When we all learn to love and appreciate all of life, then we will see the errors of our ways. It was not always like this, this is unique to the culture of civilization, and it can and will be undone.

Yes, I put the needs of the society that are forced upon me before my ideals, but that is because of force not by choice. Drilling for oil does not help nor make things easier. It makes life harder by forcing people to labor, pay for food, pay for water and breathe dirty air. It makes products like plastics, PVC, and fertilizer that only cause further destruction to our precious lands and water sources. These sources are critical to ALL life, not just our own. We must be willing to live with the consequences of our decisions, but it appears that we won’t be able to live with those decisions and neither will anything else.

Originally Posted by DSailing

I think it is our nature to love not destroy. It is our teaching in our culture that teaches us to hate and destroy, because civilization can not survive otherwise. When we all learn to love and appreciate all of life, then we will see the errors of our ways. It was not always like this, this is unique to the culture of civilization, and it can and will be undone.

The culture of civilization is the culture of man. Who is teaching to hate and destroy? Men teach that - who taught them? Men before them. If it isn't our nature to both love and destroy then where did the destruction come from? You can take kids out of school, but you can't force them to think like you, anymore than I can force you to think like me. People think differently, and everybody makes their own choices. Nobody will ever think the same way, and there will always be someone who wants what you have. This isn't unique to today's culture, this is the oldest human conflict there is.

Originally Posted by DSailing

Yes, I put the needs of the society that are forced upon me before my ideals, but that is because of force not by choice.

That's not true. You still choose. You choose to stay out of jail, you choose to stay alive, you choose to strive for clean living - all choices. It's human nature to put the perceived vital needs before anything else. That's why sometimes a guy will love and sometimes he will hate. Sometimes create sometimes destroy. Technology didn't cause that. Oil didn't create problems. It's just another avenue for people to prove who they are, what they want, and what they'll do to get it.

Thinking that not drilling will make people better is no more accurate than thinking that drilling will. You say that it is our culture's teaching that causes human hate and destruction - wouldn't it be a better venture to crusade against that teaching rather than to crusade against drilling for oil? Do you really think that drilling for oil is going to prevent people from seeing the errors of their ways?

Running out of oil might be the wakeup call a lot of people need, but I don't think it's right for a few to hold back vast resources from millions of consumers just because the bears might not like it and because civilization isn't perfect. (Will the same people who are using oil right now as we speak suddenly stop and say "no we don't want anymore thank you. you're drilling in Alaska and I don't want that oil. I only want Saudi, Canadian, and Argentinian oil please. I'm going to drop everything, find a good walking stick, and head to the mountains now."? Maybe one or two will, but not by the numbers that are so vocal right now) When I apply common sense to this issue, I find it impossible to understand why we shouldn't drill

I feel like I'm butting in on a private conversation between hoglahoo and DSailing.

The main fallacy about increased drilling is that it will solve our energy problems. If anything, it will only make them worse.

People won't conserve and they won't develop alternatives. If we open new reserves, demand will rise to meet the supply. It's the one place I can think of where demand is controlled by supply to any extent. People will buy SUVs again; China will get thirstier.

Ever stop to think that high oil costs are actually slowing China's progress toward becoming an economic juggernaut?

Then, when this supply dries up, what next? Find another? Go whaling again? Render household pets for their body fat?

No. We're not going that way again. It's destroying the environment and mortgaging our future.

Sorry about that, folks. It's time to suck it up and make the hard decision. It's not what's easy or comfortable. It's what's right and best for our children's future.

Or have we totally lost the ability to think of anything but our own immediate gratification?

j

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

The culture of civilization is the culture of man. Who is teaching to hate and destroy? Men teach that - who taught them? Men before them. If it isn't our nature to both love and destroy then where did the destruction come from? You can take kids out of school, but you can't force them to think like you, anymore than I can force you to think like me. People think differently, and everybody makes their own choices. Nobody will ever think the same way, and there will always be someone who wants what you have. This isn't unique to today's culture, this is the oldest human conflict there is.

Civilization is “a” culture of man, not “THE” culture of man. Our culture teaches hate for life and destruction; otherwise it would not survive. It was not all cultures that thought this way. Our culture just happened to destroy the others. So what we have is a history written by the victors. Most other cultures did not destroy the life around them, because they understood doing so would lead to their destruction.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

That's not true. You still choose. You choose to stay out of jail, you choose to stay alive, you choose to strive for clean living - all choices. It's human nature to put the perceived vital needs before anything else. That's why sometimes a guy will love and sometimes he will hate. Sometimes create sometimes destroy. Technology didn't cause that. Oil didn't create problems. It's just another avenue for people to prove who they are, what they want, and what they'll do to get it.

Yes. You are right that it is a choice, and I do choose to stay out of jail. I will do so until I am driven to fight for life.

Technology and oil go hand in hand. For me, they are both destructive products of our culture.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Thinking that not drilling will make people better is no more accurate than thinking that drilling will. You say that it is our culture's teaching that causes human hate and destruction - wouldn't it be a better venture to crusade against that teaching rather than to crusade against drilling for oil? Do you really think that drilling for oil is going to prevent people from seeing the errors of their ways?

Running out of oil might be the wakeup call a lot of people need, but I don't think it's right for a few to hold back vast resources from millions of consumers just because the bears might not like it and because civilization isn't perfect. (Will the same people who are using oil right now as we speak suddenly stop and say "no we don't want anymore thank you. you're drilling in Alaska and I don't want that oil. I only want Saudi, Canadian, and Argentinian oil please. I'm going to drop everything, find a good walking stick, and head to the mountains now."? Maybe one or two will, but not by the numbers that are so vocal right now) When I apply common sense to this issue, I find it impossible to understand why we shouldn't drill

I do argue against education as we know it, because it teaches us how to be laborers and enslaved to our system not how to live.

If oil is more important to you than life, then by all means, drill there. I will fight against it, but I know that it is a losing battle. Once that oil is gone, where do you plan to strip the resources of next? What other lands do you plan to put to waste?