Thread: Drill here, drill now, pay less!

Originally Posted by JMS

Their is always a larger picture that we need to start paying attention to!

I can only speak for myself, and for me the bigger picture is quite gloomy if we continue down the path that we are on. This is no different for China, Russia, and France, include any country here or any government which may lead us down this path.

The only technology which is sustainable is the Stone Age technology. As we run out of non-poisonous food, drinkable water, and breathable air, more people will come to this conclusion

Originally Posted by DSailing

The only technology which is sustainable is the Stone Age technology. As we run out of non-poisonous food, drinkable water, and breathable air, more people will come to this conclusion

Are you putting me on? I feel so dumb now

I'm sorry gents....but as a tester I cringe at a lot of the things that are said.


Before you start talking about "Better standards", "Wiser Cultures", etc etc.

You need to make clear what you mean by that. Because they're multi Intepritable. (damn...english language and it's spelling)

For instance Sailing said something about indiginous people and how they were "Wiser and Smarter" than people in civilisation.

If you're going to throw terms like that around you're going to have to define those for me.

For instance someone who's wiser in my eyes is someone who can apply knowlegde....and although I'm sure some of the indiginous people could do that....they didn't have the adaption skill that was needed to adapt to new situations.

If they did....they wouldn't be wiped out/threatened.

It's called natural selection boys. If you can't adapt.....you're wiped out. It works for groups of people/organisations/civilisations as well as animals.

Also there's a lot of talk about civilisation being the "evildoer" or something along those lines.

It's not possible to have a large group of people without them forming a civilisation. So that's a bit of an empty cry considering the billions of people on this earth.

Anywhere where there's 2 or more people together a civilisation automatically starts to form. Civilisation is rules of conduct, ethics etc.

And then finally:

If oil and the technology it provides is a means by which I can NOT be near the end of my life already (I'm almost 28 and our technology has brought longer lifespans without it I'd probably be dead in 10 years.) by which I can enjoy my son and wife and my life with them then so be it.

If animals are so damn great let them figure out a way that they can live with pollution....we do.

Not that I encourage pollution or anything like it. It's just that it brings along certain benefits with it and in my book the benefits in general are worth the price. (not in all cases...but then...I don't drive a big honking SUV, I drive a small 20 KM/L diesel family car.)

Originally Posted by DSailing

How many species and other people have we killed so that we may live a “better” life. Better in what way?

How does oil save anybody? All I see is the death and destruction that it causes.

Yes oil comes from the earth, but so does uranium. Do you want to handle that or spray your food with it? We should live within the means of the current suns energy, not the energy that is from millions of years ago. Or do you regard yourself better than any other living being on the earth?

without oil, we'd have no plastics, no combusitible fuel on an economic scale, no transportation, ...
if it wasn't for oil, we'd still live in the time before the industrial revolution if we leave coal out of the equation as well.

oil is necessary at least for making the step to nuclear. solar energy is only an option if you have the infrastructure to kickstart the development of the equipment.
without oil, we'd never obtain that infrastructure. You can't go from wood and fire to solar panel semiconductors without something in between.

The spray on food argument is moot because I don't do that with oil either. and nuclear energy is far less polluting than anything else atm if the proper technology is used, which allows for reuse of spent fuel in breeder reactors. UNTIL solar energy can provide in the energy needs of a modern economy, I am all for building new nuclear power plants.

do I think I'm better than the others on this planet? Given that I can only answer from my point of view: yes, I do.
I swat flies, kill insects and mice, ... because in my house there is no place for them, despite the fact that they are part of nature as well. I leave the spiders alone because I regard them as henchmen to do that work for me when I am not around. If they are visible I move them out of sight before my wife sees them, because then they usually don't stand a chance.
I also eat meat, which if you think about it is the results of growing entire species for the sole purpose of eating them, or consuming them in different ways.

Again, I apologize for high jacking this thread, but I feel that I should answer to responses.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Are you putting me on? I feel so dumb now

I don’t mean to demean people. I was trying to make the point that what we are being sold as sustainable living today is just another product of industrialization. I use wind and solar panels because they help me reduce my impact now, but if everybody went out and bought solar panels today, then it would be very destructive to the environment to manufacture all that plastic, metal, wires, and batteries that make the assembly.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

For instance Sailing said something about indiginous people and how they were "Wiser and Smarter" than people in civilisation.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

If you're going to throw terms like that around you're going to have to define those for me.

For instance someone who's wiser in my eyes is someone who can apply knowlegde....and although I'm sure some of the indiginous people could do that....they didn't have the adaption skill that was needed to adapt to new situations.

If they did....they wouldn't be wiped out/threatened.

It's called natural selection boys. If you can't adapt.....you're wiped out. It works for groups of people/organisations/civilisations as well as animals.

The majority of indigenous tribes were wise enough to know that destroying their own landbase was in turn destroying themselves. They survived on this earth living basically the same way for well over 10,000 years.

It wasn’t their ability to adapt that wiped most of them out, because they adapted quite well to their environments. It was their brother (modern civilization) that killed them in order to steal the resources of the lands.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Also there's a lot of talk about civilisation being the "evildoer" or something along those lines.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

It's not possible to have a large group of people without them forming a civilisation. So that's a bit of an empty cry considering the billions of people on this earth.

Anywhere where there's 2 or more people together a civilisation automatically starts to form. Civilisation is rules of conduct, ethics etc.

What I refer to as civilization is what we consider modern life. Old civilizations were just as destructive too, but the people eventually abandoned that way of life. These would be like the Mayans and the ancient city that used to be on the Mississippi river in North America.

Others formed bands or tribes, but not what would be considered a civilization. We are taught that civilization is the evolution of man, but I have to disagree. There are still some tribes of people living in remote pockets that haven’t been assimilated or killed off yet, and are they not the same species of man? We haven’t evolved; we just have a disease that makes us forget how to live. Instead we labor.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

If oil and the technology it provides is a means by which I can NOT be near the end of my life already (I'm almost 28 and our technology has brought longer lifespans without it I'd probably be dead in 10 years.) by which I can enjoy my son and wife and my life with them then so be it.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

If animals are so damn great let them figure out a way that they can live with pollution....we do.

Yeah, modern products have extended the life of modern man, but saying that people always had short lifespans is a myth. We as modern civilization didn’t live long, because living in cities with huge amounts of people was unhealthy. There were plenty of indigenous people that lived well into their 80’s and beyond.

We shouldn’t have to live with pollution and neither should the other animals. Clean air, food, water and land was free at one point.

I’m not trying to get everybody to think like me, but many should consider the consequences of our actions. We should demand change. For me, there is no fix for our disease, we should begin to reduce and step away from modern civilization. Otherwise I feel that our path leads to our doom.

Originally Posted by DSailing

Again, I apologize for high jacking this thread, but I feel that I should answer to responses.



I don’t mean to demean people. I was trying to make the point that what we are being sold as sustainable living today is just another product of industrialization. I use wind and solar panels because they help me reduce my impact now, but if everybody went out and bought solar panels today, then it would be very destructive to the environment to manufacture all that plastic, metal, wires, and batteries that make the assembly.



The majority of indigenous tribes were wise enough to know that destroying their own landbase was in turn destroying themselves. They survived on this earth living basically the same way for well over 10,000 years.

It wasn’t their ability to adapt that wiped most of them out, because they adapted quite well to their environments. It was their brother (modern civilization) that killed them in order to steal the resources of the lands.



What I refer to as civilization is what we consider modern life. Old civilizations were just as destructive too, but the people eventually abandoned that way of life. These would be like the Mayans and the ancient city that used to be on the Mississippi river in North America.

Others formed bands or tribes, but not what would be considered a civilization. We are taught that civilization is the evolution of man, but I have to disagree. There are still some tribes of people living in remote pockets that haven’t been assimilated or killed off yet, and are they not the same species of man? We haven’t evolved; we just have a disease that makes us forget how to live. Instead we labor.



Yeah, modern products have extended the life of modern man, but saying that people always had short lifespans is a myth. We as modern civilization didn’t live long, because living in cities with huge amounts of people was unhealthy. There were plenty of indigenous people that lived well into their 80’s and beyond.

We shouldn’t have to live with pollution and neither should the other animals. Clean air, food, water and land was free at one point.

I’m not trying to get everybody to think like me, but many should consider the consequences of our actions. We should demand change.

Good grief that lettertype you use is small.

I personally don't think that the indiginous people were "wise" enough to let the land flourish. There are many cultures that have been unable to redefine themselves and find new/more effective methods. A lot of people are affraid of change and leaders often moreso than others. Also not all indiginous people have been "killed by their brother civilisation". There's plenty indiginous people that gave up their old ways in search of better ones but failed to adapt enough to it.

In cultures such as a lot of the technologically challenged (don't really know what else to call them) there is known to be a mindset such as that.

"Things are done the way they are because that's how we've always done them" is more often the mantra than "because that's the best way to do it"

We also find that often when these cultures find out what things there are to gain from technology then they in turn try to switch to that as well. The sad things is that it's often without succes.

To me that says that they've not being doing it their way because they had gone through all the options and decided that one had the most advantages...but because they'd had no other options and had never thought there would be any.

The argument "they lived" simpler lives and better ones is just flawed to me.

Simpler is NOT always better. And sometimes reaping the enviroment produces benefits that are worth the price.

A good example is the internet/computer connection that you're reading this message on. You seem to plead for a simpler, less technology driven life. Something that isn't driven by oil.

But computers, powerplants and it's components, furniture, kitchen materials, your shoes, the glasses you (might) wear etc etc etc. Is all made possible because of Oil driven technology.

Anything that's plastic and anything that requires power (electricity) requires oil. (sometimes not for creating the power, but then for transportation of components, planning etc etc.)

Stating that we would be better off without is a very simple statement for something with so many complex factors.

Can you back that statement up? Because as far as I've seen people living off the land and only off the land only get old as a case of exception. Just like some people who smoke never get cancer. Most do....and most "indiginous" people died young as far as I know. (Bytheway you're severely limiting your viewpoints to the US or so it seems. Western Europe is still populated by it's "indiginous people" and they've adapted just fine to it.

For me, there is no fix for our disease, we should begin to reduce and step away from modern civilization. Otherwise I feel that our path leads to our doom.

Sounds like you're proposing a fix to me. Not a very good one though since it will never happen. In order to do this people who are in power will have to relinquish that power. And you know what they say about power

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

So you might want to start thinking abotu a better solution.

As for me, I've already stated. It's worth the price for now. The price of giving up this lifestyle, this "civilisation" as you call it is higher than the benefits it would give. Thus making such a step not viable.

Originally Posted by DSailing

I don’t mean to demean people. I was trying to make the point that what we are being sold as sustainable living today is just another product of industrialization. I use wind and solar panels because they help me reduce my impact now, but if everybody went out and bought solar panels today, then it would be very destructive to the environment to manufacture all that plastic, metal, wires, and batteries that make the assembly.

Very true. Yet these exact items are touted as the panacea for all of our pollution and energy ills, isn't that hugely disturbing to you and everyone else?

The lack of forsite of the modern environmental movement appears to me to mirror the exploitive policies of the beginning of the industrial age.

Originally Posted by DSailing

]The majority of indigenous tribes were wise enough to know that destroying their own landbase was in turn destroying themselves. They survived on this earth living basically the same way for well over 10,000 years.

The most reveling terms here are "exactly the same way" they reached high stone age technology and failed to make the jump to the next level of luxury, heck most indigenous people failed to make the jump from hunter gatherer to agriculture. Thats not wisdom it's stagnation. Also for the majority of these people sanitation and pollution control consisted of going to the door of the tepee before you tossed your trash or took a piss. Even the most sophisticated sanitation in the New World would have been unacceptable to someone from Greek or Roman times and barely satisfactory for the Europeans during the dark ages.

Originally Posted by DSailing

It wasn’t their ability to adapt that wiped most of them out, because they adapted quite well to their environments. It was their brother (modern civilization) that killed them in order to steal the resources of the lands.

Thats they way it works. weak culture meets stronger more vibrant culture weak culture gets squished. If we hadn't killed them off we would have made their culture just as extinct by our example of easier living. To believe otherwise is to ignore all the lessons of history.

Originally Posted by DSailing

Clean air, food, water and land was free at one point.

Sorry, patently false. The price of "clean air, food, and land" was a very small population where everyone worked their asses off 16 plus hours a day and then still hoped the weather would allow their food stores to last till next harvest. All of the ease we experience today is directly due to the destruction of some type of "natural" habitat, without that destruction you can't plant a field, or irrigate poor land. Actually as soon as some wandering hunter gatherer poked a fruit seed into the ground and fount out that it grew we began to control and thereby change our planet.

I don't believe we will be able to mitigate our impact, nor should we. We will continue to change the natural world and as long as we do it in ways that allow us humans to prosper it is all to the good.

You can join the Incas I will look forward to the day when we progress further and leave this planet for other places to use to our advantage.


ON THE ORIGINAL TOPIC:

I think it is irresponsible for us not to use our own resources wherever we have them. We should, now that we have the technology, drill for our own oil wherever it happens to lie. While we should mitigate our impact simply because we might want that land for something else someday we shouldn't let that be the only deciding factor when it concerns the lives of our citizens. It has always been foolish policy to interfere in the business of other nations simply to try to make a commodity more available to us. We can and should and could let the world market decide without our influence if we need foreign oil but far better to have our own supply.

Originally Posted by DSailing

I don’t mean to demean people. I was trying to make the point that what we are being sold as sustainable living today is just another product of industrialization.

That's fine, I just wanted to be sure. After I read your comment about Stone Age technology (why did I capitalize that? Must be from playing empire earth too much...) being the only sustainable technology and that people will have to die off en masse to start realizing that, I thought maybe I was being sucked into a fabricated argument just for kicks Now it makes sense to me why we shouldn't drill. The more resources we rob ourselves of, the quicker we'll be forced into the glorious stone age again

More drilling will only help the corporations, not you or me. If the oil corps were feeling the squeeze due to not enough supply, the profit margins would be curtailed. As you can see, that is not happening.

Yes, we are dependant on oil in this modern age, like it or not. It would however, be nice if the government was on the side of the consumer, as opposed to Big Oil...

As long as big oil owns the govt and the energy industry the status qou will remain. If we the people want to do something about it we will have to do so as individuals, wether that means scaling down, alt. fuels/platforms, motorbikes,bicycles or mules. Waiting for someone else to do something will not work. Do what you can, you can not beat the dealer at his game, and unfortunately to a great extent we are forced to sit at his table and play by his rules, but we can all do something no matter how small, we may still have to eat some of his s&*t but we dont have to eat all of it. Wether you do it for your economic sakes or the environment we owe ourselves and our kids to do something. It was the individual tinkerer that gave us the technology we enjoy today, we need to learn to tinker again, and get ourselves out of this mess whatever our motivation. Dialogue, not debate.