Thread: Freedom of Speech

Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

I am sure you are right.But these views are shared by many different etnic groups towards eachother.
Palestinien children learn from an early age to hate jews and western culture.Leaders of Hamas actually compare jews to monkeys and pigs.Why is it that these views seem to get a bigger acceptance in under developed countries?

Kristoffer

Having just come through eight years of George Bush, I'm not sure I'm in a position to comment negatively on under-developed nations and what they believe. Certainly, they don't seem to have a monopoly on ignorance.

j

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

I do believe that many factions within Israel consider Palestinian lives to be worth less than Israeli lives. When I was young, I had occasion to meet Rabbi Meier Kahane, and that, frankly, was his belief. His view, sadly, has gained much sway in the region, and especially in the West Bank settlements.

j

I would point out that many years ago in the U.S the majority of people thought the indigenous peoples were just a bunch of savages and their lives weren't worth very much. The country, government and people carried on a campaign to eliminate these people. Sometimes it was done for economic reasons and sometimes it was done for religious reasons and sometimes it was a social thing or maybe just sport to many.

The fact is the human race has never needed any real reason to kill each other off. Just think of a reason no matter how trivial. Any will do.

As far as Gaza is concerned the Israelis are in a no win situation. If they do nothing hamas will be emboldened and continue to lob rockets into Israel. If the try and get rid of hamas they will just blend into the population knowing civilians whom they use as shields will die helping Hamas' cause further.

On the point of this person or that person hates this group or that group is that a revelation to any of you? Every country in the world has people who hate other people for a variety of reasons.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I would point out that many years ago in the U.S the majority of people thought the indigenous peoples were just a bunch of savages and their lives weren't worth very much. The country, government and people carried on a campaign to eliminate these people. Sometimes it was done for economic reasons and sometimes it was done for religious reasons and sometimes it was a social thing or maybe just sport to many.

The fact is the human race has never needed any real reason to kill each other off. Just think of a reason no matter how trivial. Any will do.

As far as Gaza is concerned the Israelis are in a no win situation. If they do nothing hamas will be emboldened and continue to lob rockets into Israel. If the try and get rid of hamas they will just blend into the population knowing civilians whom they use as shields will die helping Hamas' cause further.

On the point of this person or that person hates this group or that group is that a revelation to any of you? Every country in the world has people who hate other people for a variety of reasons.

That makes Hamas sound like a bunch of irrational, homicidal lunatics, which is the view that Israeli policy strongly promotes. I'm not saying that Hamas is a bunch of Boy Scouts, but the current wave of rocket attacks is, in fact, their stated response to the Israeli blockade of Gaza that has caused starvation for many and hardship for the entire population. That's why so many average Palestinians cheer Hamas, not because they're really into killing Israelis.

j

Why doesn't Egypt open it borders to Gaza for the humanitarian needs. IIRC Gaza was at time a part of Egypt. If Israel and Hamas don't get along, Why can't the other neighbors supply such aid. I don't here of rockets going into Egypt nor Egypt sending rockets into Gaza.

BTW, Jim I am not following you around the forum to argue or debate with you exclusively, we just seem to be hitting on the same topics.

Originally Posted by English

The holocaust annoys the heck out of me more than anything.
I read the history, I've visited some of the concentration camps, I've seen the gas chambers and the incinerators. I've also heard every moaning Jew from one side of the world to the other go on and on and on about it. I've also had the Jewish propoganda machine use its influential media people hype the message continuously on the television and radio virtually daily throughout my life.
Its now even crawled its way onto my shaving forum.

Very interesting comment. January 27th is International Holocaust Remembrance Day and every year I wonder why no other ethnic group has an international day to remind the entire world how much it has suffered. According to Prof. Norman Finkelstein, nobody talked much about the holocaust until 1967 when Israel started to use it to justify its policies. This is from his book The Holocaust Industry. Like Kleenex, the promotors of the Holocaust forgot to always write it Holocaust® and other people began to use it to describe "ordinary" genocide. I remember a story about Clinton talking on the phone with an Israeli Prime Minister (was it Begin?) and Clinton said Beirut could be a real holocaust and the Prime Minister replied something to the effect of, "don't tell me what a holocaust is, I know what a real holocaust is". Well, it the end, the word holocaust began to lose its specific meaning and was replaced by the Hebrew word Shoah, which means the same thing but isn't as vulnerable to being coopted.

Another interesting question: Why is the Holocaust propaganda machine so opposed to allowing the Armenian tragedy to be called genocide?

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

We should maintain a distinction between the action of the Israeli government and the action of "Jews." There is a big difference. Disagreement with policies of the State of Israel is not synonymous with anti-semitism, nor are the activities of Israel equal to the activities of all Jews.

The State of Israel has to answer for its actions in Gaza, not Jews.

j

Nord Jim, you're my new hero. If you ever come to Modena, I'd like to invite you to dinner.

Originally Posted by English

Nord Jim,

You are correct. But I should remind you that the Israeli Government was democratically elected by its people who are Jewish.

You are of course entitled to your opinion and I respect it. It doesn't mean I agree with it but that is what freedom of speech is all about.

Part of Israel's propaganda is that it is the national homeland of the Jews and speaks for the Jewish people. I never wanted to live there (along with 2/3 of all the Jews), even before I was disgraced and ejected from the tribe. I think its time for Jews to realize that they don't have to support everything that the State of Israel does. By the way, "Haaretz", an English-language Israeli paper, is fascinating to read. Israelis say things there that no one could ever get away with in the US media.

Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

Not that I support the murder of sivilians.But to compare Gaza with holocaust is to me very disrespectfull.We are talking about a total of 1300 deaths.Compered to 300000 murders every month for several years.I do however agree with you that the holocaust card has been played to often.

Kristoffer.

What gets me angry is the hypocrisy. The purpose of constantly reminding everyone about the holocaust was, supposedly, to prevent those types of things from being being done to anyone. How can we allow the state of Isael to use the holocaust to justify dropping white phosophorus bombs on children, regardless of the number? Also, if the Jews/Israelis have the right to "never forget" then they must assume that the Arabs will feel the same way. So, why did the Israeli go so far overboard?

Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

But to compare Gaza with holocaust is to me very disrespectfull.We are talking about a total of 1300 deaths.Compered to 300000 murders every month for several years.I do however agree with you that the holocaust card has been played to often.

Kristoffer.

this is so obvious I wonder why it needed to be said, but it did so thank you. intentionally rounding up hordes of Jews to gas them because they are Jews in order to wipe them out is a holocaust. Trying to wipe out kurds and armenians because they are kurds or amenians, same idea. Gaza isn't even close and suggesting it is makes me really wonder about where people are coming from frankly. The Israelis did a number of things to minimize how many people they killed, and did it to weaken a terrorist organization that a) hides behind it's people and b) was elected by those people. There was no attempt to wipe out a race, no desire to wipe out a race, and in fact measures were taken to minimize the death.

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

And our government was elected by people who are predominantly Christian. I think the two concepts need to be kept separate.

j

The other day I saw a video of Noam Chomsky's talk on Gaza (sorry I can't find the link) and during the Q&A, someone asked why the US was such a strong supporter of Israel. He said that, beyond the effect of the Israel lobby and strategic geopolitical issues, there was also the fact that Americans identify with Israel's situation because of our own history: A colonial people who had an indigenous people to dispose of and a concept of manifest destiny (I think he called it Providentialism, the belief that god wanted us to take the land). I appreciated his comment because I have always felt that the genocide of the Native Americans was a dark skeleton in our collective psyche that was bound to bear very bitter fruit someday if we didn't address it and cure it. I think there is truth in this, in the sense that we have to support Israel because if we criticize them, then we have to face what we have done to the Native Americans and others around the world.