Thread: Freedom of Speech

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

As far as Gaza is concerned the Israelis are in a no win situation. If they do nothing hamas will be emboldened and continue to lob rockets into Israel. If the try and get rid of hamas they will just blend into the population knowing civilians whom they use as shields will die helping Hamas' cause further.

On the point of this person or that person hates this group or that group is that a revelation to any of you? Every country in the world has people who hate other people for a variety of reasons.

In Northern Ireland they finally got out of the mess by sitting down and talking. Sure, there is nothing heroic about talking, and both parties had to compromise their ideals, but the violence ended and people are finally moving on.

Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

Wich is your right. But when stating that you would not respect a race of people that would do such a thing, there really aren't many races of people left to respect.Since the beginning of human kind such terrible acts has been commited.What makes the jews so espesially evil in your oppinion?

You are quite correct that there have been other genocides and that many nations have blood on their hands. Of nations worthy of respect, the Irish come to mind and maybe the Swiss. Your question about why the Jews should be singled out for criticism wasn't directed at me, but I do have an opinion. The Jewish mantra is that we have been persecuted in almost every Christian country for 2000 years. I don't want to debate whether that is true or not but let's assume it's true for the sake of argument. If that's the case, don't we have the right to ask the Jews, "and what have you learned during your 2000 years of suffering?" When the Jews didn't have a country, we didn't know. Now, we do. What they learned is that you should do what they criticize everyone for doing. So, it's the hypocrisy again. My suffering counts, yours doesn't. My country's "right to exist" versus you have no right to have one. My 6 million and your ... and so on. Out of one side of their mouth is "the world owes special treatment because what we suffered was exceptionally horrible" and then they go and do things are similar. For me the bottom line is, if Israel has the right to act like any other country, let them and let them take the consequences. But then, why should the US be spending $3 billion a year to support them?

Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

I am sure you are right.But these views are shared by many different etnic groups towards eachother.
Palestinien children learn from an early age to hate jews and western culture.Leaders of Hamas actually compare jews to monkeys and pigs.Why is it that these views seem to get a bigger acceptance in under developed countries?

Kristoffer

The Israelis make a lot of noise about what Palestinian children are taught, that Palestinian textbooks don't show the map of Israel, etc. How come no one bothers to ask what Israeli children are taught and what maps are in Israeli textbooks, etc. You'd really be surprised Kristoffer. It's just as bad if not worse.

Originally Posted by kilowattkid

Why doesn't Egypt open it borders to Gaza for the humanitarian needs. IIRC Gaza was at time a part of Egypt. If Israel and Hamas don't get along, Why can't the other neighbors supply such aid. I don't here of rockets going into Egypt nor Egypt sending rockets into Gaza.

BTW, Jim I am not following you around the forum to argue or debate with you exclusively, we just seem to be hitting on the same topics.

Because Egypt is run by a corrupt dictator who has been eating from the US foreign aid trough since 1971, receiving almost as much as Israel. Also, Mubarak doesn't want Hamas to succeed either. If the Palestinians get a democratic state (and don't forget Hamas was democratically elected) it means big trouble for him because, then, the Egyptians will want democracy.

Originally Posted by loueedacat

this is so obvious I wonder why it needed to be said, but it did so thank you. intentionally rounding up hordes of Jews to gas them because they are Jews in order to wipe them out is a holocaust. Trying to wipe out kurds and armenians because they are kurds or amenians, same idea. Gaza isn't even close and suggesting it is makes me really wonder about where people are coming from frankly. The Israelis did a number of things to minimize how many people they killed, and did it to weaken a terrorist organization that a) hides behind it's people and b) was elected by those people. There was no attempt to wipe out a race, no desire to wipe out a race, and in fact measures were taken to minimize the death.

Noam Chomsky said exactly the opposite, that the Israeli did everything they could to maximize the number of civilians killed. For example, the attack was started on a Saturday afternoon right after the children got out of school and a lot of people were out milling around. This is how they were able to kill over 250 people the first day. They attacked a UN school and the graduation of police officers.

Chomsky talked about Israel's "right to defend itself" against the rockets. He said they do have a right to defend themselves but not a right to use force. The rockets were a response to two years of embargo and Israel's violation of the cease fire. The embargo was an act of war against Gaza. If they wanted to stop the rockets they could have simply lifted the embargo without killing anyone. During the first four months of the cease-fire, Hamas kept its part of the bargain and no Israelis were killed. Israel, on the other hand, didn't keep its part of the bargain, which was to ease the embargo.

When we speak of the Holocaust only in terms of numbers, I think we miss one of its primary and most important lessons. The Holocaust wasn't about monstrosity, although it certainly was monstrous. It was about the banality of evil.

The German people didn't wake up one morning and decide, "Oh, I have a good idea! Let's be monsters." They went that path through countless, seemingly insignificant choices. My father, a WWII vet, used to talk about this "dark place in the German soul." I believed that for years. Then, I went to Germany and discovered not these brooding, potential mass murderers, but a sophisticated, clever, fun-loving, moral, hospitable people and I decided that there really isn't any "dark place" in the German soul at all, and if the Holocaust could happen there, it could happen anywhere. And, in fact, my father went back to Germany after that and reached the same conclusion.

Every time we decide to treat some people differently from others because of some ingrained characteristic, that's a little piece of the Holocaust. Every time we allow someone to be killed casually, and justify it on some moral ground, that's another little piece. The Holocaust was caused not by some great outpouring of evil, but by small compromises by millions of individual people, most of whom had no idea they were participating in a huge evil.

Israel, in my mind, lost the high ground in the Sabra camp. They did exactly what the Nazis did. During WWII, at Babi Yar in the Soviet Union, the Nazis rounded up thousands of Jews into a small valley, and then stepped aside while Ukrainian partisans massacred them. So the Nazis weren't guilty of their deaths?

I don't care about numbers. When the Israeli military drops phosphorous bombs on Palistinian schoolchildren, they're heading down a dark, painfully familiar path. How far down that path they're willing to go, in the end, only time will tell. But I'm afraid for them, for their souls. It's a hard place to return from.

End of rant.

j

Originally Posted by Chimensch

The Israelis make a lot of noise about what Palestinian children are taught, that Palestinian textbooks don't show the map of Israel, etc. How come no one bothers to ask what Israeli children are taught and what maps are in Israeli textbooks, etc. You'd really be surprised Kristoffer. It's just as bad if not worse.

This is simply not true, you blatently lie to justify your own hatred of Israel and I find that totally unacceptable.

Luckily you are in a minority that wishes to see Israel removed from the map. Israel is strong and will continue to defend itself as she sees fit, you Chimensch can write whatever garbage you see fit on an internet message board but in reality can do nothing to really harm Israel .

Once again Chimensch, you have managed to turn a thread about freedom of speech into one condemning Jews and Israel. It's obvious for all to see what your real agenda is.

Originally Posted by Englishgent

This is simply not true, you blatently lie to justify your own hatred of Israel and I find that totally unacceptable.

Welcome back Englishgent. I did read this somewhere. I'll try to track down a reliable source for you. It may take me a couple of days.

Originally Posted by Englishgent

Luckily you are in a minority that wishes to see Israel removed from the map. Israel is strong and will continue to defend itself as she sees fit, you Chimensch can write whatever garbage you see fit on an internet message board but in reality can do nothing to really harm Israel.

I never said I wanted to see Israel removed the map, though I think it would be a good thing for everyone if it went back to its 1967 boarders. I don't want to harm anyone, I just want to see Israel stop harming people (and also the Palestinians). You are right that there isn't much that I can do but I'm trying to what little I can.

Originally Posted by Englishgent

Once again Chimensch, you have managed to turn a thread about freedom of speech into one condemning Jews and Israel. It's obvious for all to see what your real agenda is.

That is not true. I responded to comments about the Jews and Israel posted by others. It is true that I am very interested in a discussion about the Jews and Israel but I have no other agenda than trying to have a free discussion.

I am glad that you are posting here but I have to ask you to stop the personal attacks on me. I am not the issue.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Noam Chomsky said exactly the opposite, that the Israeli did everything they could to maximize the number of civilians killed. For example, the attack was started on a Saturday afternoon right after the children got out of school and a lot of people were out milling around. This is how they were able to kill over 250 people the first day. They attacked a UN school and the graduation of police officers.

Chomsky talked about Israel's "right to defend itself" against the rockets. He said they do have a right to defend themselves but not a right to use force. The rockets were a response to two years of embargo and Israel's violation of the cease fire. The embargo was an act of war against Gaza. If they wanted to stop the rockets they could have simply lifted the embargo without killing anyone. During the first four months of the cease-fire, Hamas kept its part of the bargain and no Israelis were killed. Israel, on the other hand, didn't keep its part of the bargain, which was to ease the embargo.

Did you seriously just quote Noam Chomsky? Have any Benedict Arnold quotes to share as well? any inspiring patriotic words from Kim Philby perhaps?

Seriously Chimensch, Do you honestly believe Hamas would stop all terror against Israel, if they pulled back to the borders of 67?

If you do, I think you are incredably naiv.But thats just me....