Thread: For An Intelligent Conversation On Spirituality/Religion

Interesting, because here was me thinking that I'm a fundamental christian and I don't believe that.

You must've asked every one of them for you to be so sure.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Interesting, because here was me thinking that I'm a fundamental christian and I don't believe that.

You must've asked every one of them for you to be so sure.

Jimmy didn't say "fundamental" he said "fundamentalist" which actually has a narrow meaning and includes the belief that if one does not accept Christ then one will go to hell

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Interesting, because here was me thinking that I'm a fundamental christian and I don't believe that.

You must've asked every one of them for you to be so sure.

If you don't believe that you must either accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior or face eternal damnation then by definition you are not a fundamentalist Christian.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Interesting, because here was me thinking that I'm a fundamental christian and I don't believe that.

You must've asked every one of them for you to be so sure.

i will agree. i have met many Christians who i wouldn't have known were Christians (not that is matters to me, seriously) and didn't push their views on me. its funny, i have some very close friends that are much more religious than i knew and they don't even mind when i make a religion joke, well at least they pretend to laugh, but the joke probably wasn't funny. i have met some very accepting priests, and some pushy jackasses that seem perfectly normal right until they end their story with " and this wouldn't have happened if you had accepted God into your life".

i firmly believe that most religious people (sorry to lump everyone together) are accepting and aren't pushy. but as usual, the bad ones give the rest a bad rap. maybe i am too accepting. i suspect that that is not true.

i have however been judged because i am not religious and this really ticks me off. i don't judge others based on what they believe, unless it effects me in a negative way. i know for a fact that i have never effected anyone negatively by not believing what they believe. i have had people stop talking to me, assume that i am an atheist, they mock Native spiritual beliefs ( and trust me i can take a joke, these weren't jokes) and even had an ex-girlfriend (girlfriend at the time) try to convert me by giving me a bible for christmas and telling me i didn't really have to be into it, i just had to say a little prayer and go to her church (in her defense she is very sweet and nice, and meant no wrong). i am probably being to sensitive but these things were stupid and have stuck in my mind.

I wrote a long post to respond to this and then decided to delete it. I don't want to offend anyone. Taken literally the bible says clearly and repeatedly that salvation is attained only through belief in Christ.

It is hard to swallow since 'we' think that moral and kind people who don't believe should be invited to the party. If we don't believe it or are not sure we feel that surely we will have a pass when the last trumpet sounds.

That is not what it says though. Salvation is based on the Hebrew law of sacrifice to "cover" sin. To completely understand what Jesus dying on the cross meant you must understand that belief system.

By my definition a fundamentalist Christian believes that the whole of the bible is the inerrant word of God. If you believe that you have to take the good with the bad and that includes the assertion that the only way to God is through belief in Christ as "your" personal savior.

Modern scholarship has demonstrated that the bible as it has come down to us through the years is not a reliable document based on the surviving manuscripts. A very good discussion of that can be heard here.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD;347991Modern scholarship has demonstrated that the bible as it has come down to us through the years is not a reliable document based on the surviving manuscripts. A very good discussion of that can be heard [URL="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5052156"

here.[/URL]

good point. this is something that has always bugged me about the Bible. it has been rewritten many times. why dd it need to be rewritten if it was the word of God? i hope this doesn't offend anyone as i am actually asking how this was justified. i mean no offense.

Originally Posted by chee16

good point. this is something that has always bugged me about the Bible. it has been rewritten many times. why dd it need to be rewritten if it was the word of God? i hope this doesn't offend anyone as i am actually asking how this was justified. i mean no offense.

I hope we can talk about these issues without offending anyone. If you follow the link or google Bart Ehrman there is much on the topic. The bible was disseminated orally for hundreds of years and eventually copied by hand by scribes. Inevitably variations occurred. Some by mistake and some purposefuly by those with a specific theological point of view. How the canon was selected is another interesting study.

Originally Posted by Chris L

I agree wholeheartedly that we humans as a species have flaws in spades; inherent flaws that have not been corrected in eons and, here comes a "glass half empty" ending....wait for it........won't be corrected even eons from now.

Your second "person A" exchange is interesting. I would argue that a true Christian for example, wouldn't feel threatened by another's belief system. They absolutely would believe their belief system is true but being threatened by opposing belief, nihilism, athiesism? No, quite the opposite. Since inception, true Christians that die for their faith having been oppressed, tortured and killed believe that being oppressed and being a martyr is a good thing. A true Christian would believe that threat to them as a result of their faith and subsequent oppression, persecution and death wouldn't mean the Christian was doing something wrong, it would mean the Christian was doing something right.

To clarify my reference to a "true Christian" I would mean a Christian that follows the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels which would not necessarily then be specific to a single denomination.

Interesting stuff.

Chris L

The problem is that most people who identify themselves as Christians appear to be very insecure in their faith, and as a result of this insecurity tend to be very intolerant of any idea that may challenge the basis of their belief. For example, the large number of Christian faithful who cannot tolerate any mention of Darwinian evolution. Their belief is tied to Bible being a precise historical document so any history or other explaination that does not match perfectly with the Bible, if correct, would invalidate their faith. But, this cannot be, because they do believe, so the proponents of this alternate explaination must be confronted, disproven or stopped.

In my opinion, and I consider myself a Christian, those who cannot accept evolution have a very limited concept God and his capabilities. Any God worth his name would be perfectly capable of setting up a self contained sustainable system of evolution that would require no further intervention once it was set running.

Originally Posted by fccexpert

The problem is that most people who identify themselves as Christians appear to be very insecure in their faith, and as a result of this insecurity tend to be very intolerant of any idea that may challenge the basis of their belief. For example, the large number of Christian faithful who cannot tolerate any mention of Darwinian evolution. Their belief is tied to Bible being a precise historical document so any history or other explaination that does not match perfectly with the Bible, if correct, would invalidate their faith. But, this cannot be, because they do believe, so the proponents of this alternate explaination must be confronted, disproven or stopped.

In my opinion, and I consider myself a Christian, those who cannot accept evolution have a very limited concept God and his capabilities. Any God worth his name would be perfectly capable of setting up a self contained sustainable system of evolution that would require no further intervention once it was set running.

I wouldn't argue with anything you've said. Alternative beliefs, lack of beliefs, hybrid beliefs, etc are not threatening to me, they're very simply to be expected.

Chris L

I believe that children are our future. Teach them well, and let them lead the way. We are formally known as Kidsians, but the popular press likes to call us Whitneys.

Personally I am in favour of all religions, as long as they leave me alone. That is why I completely endorse the personal belief paradigm.

James.