Thread: I never know what to say about such things!

Originally Posted by JMS

he said "No you weren't. You wanted to kill the snake."

This is probably the most relevant comment so far.

People do what they want to do. The justifications they give are just the motives.

This is even true of good people who are motivated to do good things. But that's another discussion.

Originally Posted by Joeman

The most interesting thing I find is when a man tells a women what she can and cannot do with her own body, as I believe to date no man has ever carried a pregnancy to term.

Oh, shes having herself aborted, all this time I thought she was having someone else aborted. My apologies.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

One who does not confuse religious doctrine with spirituality.

James.

Your doctrine is an exact match of your spirituality.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Oh, shes having herself aborted, all this time I thought she was having someone else aborted. My apologies.

There's the problem (which you know of course), most persons not completely opposed to all abortions don't see the fetus as a "someone."
As I've said before, neither do I, up to "some point." I have not yet answered my own question where that point is. I will not, however, answer that point for someone else. I know that I will teach my daughter about respecting herself and the many good ways to minimize the chances that she'll ever need to make that decision.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

There's the problem (which you know of course), most persons not completely opposed to all abortions don't see the fetus as a "someone."
As I've said before, neither do I, up to "some point." I have not yet answered my own question where that point is. I will not, however, answer that point for someone else. I know that I will teach my daughter about respecting herself and the many good ways to minimize the chances that she'll ever need to make that decision.

Very good answer.

Smokelaw, Im not trying to beat anybody in the head with my sense of ethics, but this point to me is the simplest. Boy meets girl, sperm meets egg,VOILA!, and there you have it. Its like the difference between leavened bread and unleavened, once the yeast is added there is no doubt. The same holds true for juice versus wine, the fermentation(alcohol) is the difference.


BTW in the case of rape, incest, endangerment of the mother or severe deformities of the child, I consider mercy and compassion the wieghtier matters of the law. I would not wish to be in any of these positions and cannot/will not judge anyone who is.

With regards to ending a pregnancy prior to term, this topic has been the center of debate for many years, with both sides feeling as though they are right and justified in their feelings. I feel it justifies mentioning this because, to date, the vast majority of these people, on both sides, have done this through civil debate, not shooting the other. While we all have differing views, the fact that a man was killed is tragic.

Originally Posted by JMS

Do they not have to answer to their conscience and God ( or whatever your belief is)?

I've always found that to be a darkly fascinating aspect of religious zealotry.

As it happens, I just read a quote from a late-vicotirian collection of mystery stories tittled, The Innocence of Father Brown, which really speaks to this concept.

When will people understand that it is useless for a man to read his Bible unless he also reads everybody else's Bible? A printer reads a Bible for misprints. A Mormon reads his Bible, and finds polygamy; a Christian Scientist reads his, and finds we have no arms or legs...... ........of course, he [the villian] read the Old Testament rather than the New. Of course, he found in the Old Testament anything he wanted - lust, tyranny, treason. Oh I dare say he was honest, as you call it. But what is the good of a man being honest in his worship of dishonesty?

Some of the particulars of that passage are obviously outdated, but I think the concept if very sound. People become wrapped in a cause or an idea, and they look to their Bibles (or whatever other sacred text) and they choose the interpretation that justifies their action.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Smokelaw, Im not trying to beat anybody in the head with my sense of ethics, but this point to me is the simplest. Boy meets girl, sperm meets egg,VOILA!, and there you have it. Its like the difference between leavened bread and unleavened, once the yeast is added there is no doubt. The same holds true for juice versus wine, the fermentation(alcohol) is the difference.

Oh, SOMETHING amazing happens at that moment. It is amazing it is remarkeable...it is (in as non-religious a way that the term can be used) a miracle! I am not sure, however, that the thing that exists at that moment is a human life. I am pretty sure, in my world/ethics view, it is not. I've read plenty of your posts, and those of many people here, and never felt that anyone was trying to beat me over the head with their thoughts on this topic. We keep it civil, even as we disagree on such a weighty topic. It's one of the reasons I treasure this community.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

the fermentation(alcohol) is the difference.

All too often it is the difference in unwanted preganancies, too! Sorry, I know it is a serious matter. My apologies.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

There's the problem (which you know of course), most persons not completely opposed to all abortions don't see the fetus as a "someone."
As I've said before, neither do I, up to "some point."

I think you hit the nail square on the head with this. Excluding sociopaths, everyone agrees that it it wrong to murder a baby.

Murder + baby = wrong. Duh.

The problem is that not everyone agrees on when an egg and a sperm become a baby, and not everybody agrees on where we should define the line between mercy and murder.

I think that the saddest part of the entire abortion debate, is that at least what I have seen, it seems as though people argue the wrong points.

The pro-choice movement says a woman should have the right to choose what happens to her body.

The pro-life movement says it's wrong to murder a baby.

What a lot of activists don't seem to get is that these views are not mutually exclusive. I firmly believe that a woman SHOULD have the right to choose what happens to her body AND I believe just as firmly that it's wrong to murder a baby.

If (and that's a big "if") we ever come to the end of the abortion debate, it won't have anything to do with a woman's rights or the morality of murdering babies. It will be because we finally reached a consensus on the definitions of "baby" and "murder."