Thread: Who do you "pray" to?

Originally Posted by xman

Exactly. Faith demands that it not be questioned. Pondered in its meaning yes, but doubted of its veracity, never. Science demands the exact opposite, that it be tested to its very limits so that falsehoods and errors may be rooted out and discarded. With these two opposing methodologies spiritualism and rationalism will never see eye to eye because they look, as each intends, in opposite directions.

This seems like a good place to call it quits for me. Thanks for the civility.

X

Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Heb 11:1 (NIV) Faithis not to be blind but informed.

Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thess 5:21 (NIV)


Believe it or not science has most of it's roots in Christianity. Again don't believe me here's yet another site.

Are Christians "Anti-Science?" - Faith Facts

Originally Posted by ENUF2

Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Heb 11:1 (NIV) Faithis not to be blind but informed.

Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thess 5:21 (NIV)


Believe it or not science has most of it's roots in Christianity. Again don't believe me here's yet another site.

Are Christians "Anti-Science?" - Faith Facts

However, you have to admit, there is no way to tangibly know. That's what faith is. ESV translates Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen". Assurance of things hoped for by definition means that we haven't experienced it yet. If we have, we wouldn't hope for it any more. (Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.) That's the point. We have faith, we don't have concrete evidence that passes the scientific "smell test". But, that's okay!

I don't like the NIV because it is a concept for concept translation (or thought for thought). I prefer to have a literal translation to study.

That is why we believe with our hearts unto righteousness and confess with our mouths unto salvation.


Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen. Heb 11:1 (HCSB)

Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. Heb 11:1 (ASV)

The NIV is just the first one I came to My normal study Bibles are The Holman Christian Standard Bible (Or as we lovingly call it the Hardcore Southern Baptist edition. lol) and the American Standard Version. I use two programs by the same company The Bible Navigator and Word Search 7. Each one has 18 Bibles versions unlocked along with History, Maps, Commentaries, Dictionaries, Cross references, Encyclopedias, Devotionals and about 14 other types of study helps. I firmly believe 2Timothy 2:15

Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (ASV)

or

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth.
2 Tim 2:15 (HCSB)

Originally Posted by ENUF2

That is why we believe with our hearts unto righteousness and confess with our mouths unto salvation.


Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen. Heb 11:1 (HCSB)

Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. Heb 11:1 (ASV)

The NIV is just the first one I came to My normal study Bibles are The Holman Christian Standard Bible (Or as we lovingly call it the Hardcore Southern Baptist edition. lol) and the American Standard Version. I use two programs by the same company The Bible Navigator and Word Search 7. Each one has 18 Bibles versions unlocked along with History, Maps, Commentaries, Dictionaries, Cross references, Encyclopedias, Devotionals and about 14 other types of study helps. I firmly believe 2Timothy 2:15

Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (ASV)

or

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth.
2 Tim 2:15 (HCSB)

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God John 1:12-13

As far as how old the earth is, Gen 1:1 in the [I]beginning[I] God created the heaven and the earth. The 6 days were actually a restoration period. Now to show this would take quite some time as there are many supporting scriptures. And when quoting scripture you need supporting scriptures -for precept must be upon precept, line upon line-Isaiah 28:10.

Lets face it, how magnificent is the God that created the whole universe? Do you think he has anything to prove to you? No, you have to prove yourself to him.
He that comes to god must 1st believe that he is god.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James 2:19
(and btw, he does things however he pleases, weather he used evolution to a point or caused the big bang, etc. He want to show us things but too many scientists take him out of the picture. The most intelligence we have is foolishness to him for he knows all things. How can he not.)

It comes down to faith, everyone has a degree of faith. You have faith that you'll wake up in the morning or get to work, etc. If you have faith and will do what god requires of you and come to him with belief and commitment, then he'll show you the way. Even if you were stranded on an island with no bible, he will make a way for you to learn what he wants you to know, but in his own way, not yours. And no man is all knowing, period.
Many people lean to their own understanding without anything to base it on, and the word of god shows that. (in fact everything is in there if he shows it too you. Yes, you will ether be shown or blinded it all depends on what god wants to show you based largely on your faith and actions)

So you believe or not, it doesn't change the truth. God knows who are his and who will say yes to him or no. The adversary is very clever, the devils believe and tremble, yet they have us so distracted. People think that the devils are about chaos and destruction. They don't care, they know a miss is as good as a mile and as long as they can drag you down with them they're happy.

Well, it's easy to go on and on and it really takes time to demonstrate properly.

Essentially, Whosoever will, let them come. My children know my voice and a stranger they will not follow.
Everyone is accountable for themselves, nobody will stick up for you. And because someone claims to be this or that, but doesn't live it, don't let that drag you down. Meaning, some claim to be christians (or any belief) yet do treacherous things, thats their downfall. If they say they kill in the name of Jesus, that doesn't mean they were led by Jesus, thats their own iniquity and they will reap what they sow, but don't disavow the faith (faith not religion) because the adversary used them to fool you.

Sorry this time I really will get off my soap box

Originally Posted by xman

Thanks for the civility.

X

Good call, its great that everyone has been civil. Not always the case in these types of discussions.

In trying to keep civil, I've been reading all of the posts and I'm very impressed.

I intend to stay that way, so don't read my posts as being aggressive or disrespectful -- I am speaking from the perspective of someone who does not find much stock in

I appreciate ENUF providing links to "evidence" that the "young earth" theory is true, however, it smells of one-sidedness and half of the articles use Bible references to substantiate their claims. Even ENUF and GG's most recent posts are verse-laden.

There is no proof that any occurrence explained in the Bible ever occurred, and even the videos posted by ENUF earlier rely only upon eyewitnesses, only because, and I quote (more like paraphrase), "a lot of people knew Jesus and wouldn't stand for falsehoods being written down and passed to future generations." Is this really what the argument is being based upon? What am I missing?

A word of advice: if you are trying to convince "non-believers" of certain "Christian truths", you would be much better off referencing sources that are not religious texts as they carry no weight outside of the religions themselves. And this is coming from someone who studied the Bible inside and out for over 10 years.

Here's an old post from a few months ago: http://straightrazorpalace.com/conve...tml#post383038

Again, this is purely my point of view.. and I'm not meaning to be offensive. I'm just looking for an argument that holds water.

Thanks,

G

OK, here's an argument I feel holds water, even for those who worship science --especially for those who worship science. The primary basis for scientific study is the uncontested observation that there is order in the universe. Without it, the scientific study would be pointless. As science seeks to explain, it must acknowlege that there is a reason for this order. Now, applying the scientific principle of Ochum's Razor, which states that the simplest explanation for a given phenomenon is the most likely, it would seem to follow that the the simplest explanation is that an intelligent force designed it that way. For those who reject this notion, what explanation is left? Coincidence? Just cuz? And for those who naively believe that science is objective, it is not an uncommon occurence that a scientist who makes a discovery that contradicts the accepted theory is basically blackballed and drummed out of the corp. Oh yeah, the survey! (Remember the survey?) I pray to Jesus. But you probably guessed that by now.

Oglethorpe, yes it had occurred to me about using scripture. If someone doesn't believe then your right, using scripture isn't going to mean anything. Jesus wishes all to repent and come to him, but he knows that most wont. Therefore I'm not out to "convince" the world but put it out there and let whoever takes to it, do so.
As I said, many profess to be something or another (christians or whatever) but in reality are not. They put on a form of godliness but actually deny the teachings through deed or some underlying unbelief. I personally know of people, actually a guy at work comes to mind, he claims he's read the bible at least 5 times. I'm not sure how long he's studied for but maybe longer than me. He is still having a lot of problems and it's clear as day his studies are in vein. He doesn't mix his studying with faith and he is not learning a thing. With the couple of years I've been learning, I'm showing him things that he never saw or understood. I only know in part and I haven't read through the whole thing yet, but I'm getting strong meat and not just milk (apparently). I say this as an example of so many people out there that go to church but gain nothing from it and preachers that really aren't called to preach. It took me a while to get my head around that but after a month or 2 into my studies, it came clear to me how and why. I'm not sure if I should get into all that right now as it would involve a lot of typing (and space) and as I'm typing I'm realizing I probably shouldn't go too far in a public forum but rather to those that would be interested.
I hope I'm coming across in the right way as it is late and I usually don't post too much when it's late and I'm getting tired because it's hard to tell if I'm coming across the right way.

Hi,

Interesting thread and interesting poll results. I too was not expecting such a diverse result.

There is one poll choice missing: Jedi Faith. While I'm not a Star Wars fan, I noticed lately that there has been some people stating that they follow this "religion" - article. I wonder what they pray to... The Force? Maybe.