Health Insurance in the USA

**Bruno** · 08-03-2009, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by mhailey

from each according to their abilities, to each acording to their needs. Right? We don't need money. You work only for the joy of the service you provide, and you don't get paid, right?

People should be able to make a profit by -providing- care. That does not mean I am in favor of insurance companies milking the people for all they can squeeze out of them.

Currently, the insurance providers are motivated to cause you misery by denying as much as possible using whatever means possible.

**Bruno** · 08-03-2009, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by JMS

We who do not wish to have a national health care system do not wish for a dog eat dog world. We do however believe in the goodness of our fellow man and do not think it is the governments job to twist our arm into doing what the government deems best.

See this is what I don't get. People get all upset about providing healthcare to everybody (including people too poor to pay for decent coverage) yet things like war on terror and the war in Iraq can cost trillions and the majority of the Americans actually supports this (or at least did so when the decision was made to spend the money).

**Bruno** · 08-03-2009, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by JMS

I hope you will make an exception and post to answer my question Jimmy.
Let me start by saying that I find it rather low to emotionalize this whole healthcare debate. It makes us blind to reason and the problems with the supposed answers being fed us. Secondly, who says she will fare better under a government run system? I doubt that she would've. If I were her I would've pursued every avenue and knocked on every door until I got satisfaction. I would not have waited around for my insurance. She was chasing after the devils promise, or so it appeared.

Ok leaving the emotional arguments at the door for a while: we have a system where the government simply pays the bill (well most of it. we still pay a teeny amount) and there are no profit driven insurance providers and massive amounts of lawyers who need to get paid. This makes our system cheaper than the US system (*).

Belgium has excellent care, and at the same time I pay less than you, have full coverage incl dental, and everybody has that same level of care.

Now, if the US could somehow find a way to eliminate the need for hordes of lawyers and insurance companies that want ever growing profits, then you could arrive at the same level of cost as we do.

So the question then becomes: without socializing the cost of healthcare (not the actual provision of it, which is still private) how do you get rid of the hordes of lawyers and the scum that play no active role in medicare yet who suck up thousands of your dollars per year?

(*) there are insurance providers, and they cover things like upgrading to a single room in the hospital instead of double room, lasik treatment, and other stuff that is either not relevant to a medical procedure, or not related to a procedure with a medical justification.

EDIT: Just to clarify my point I made this drawing.

**honedright** · 08-03-2009, 12:20 PM

I'll be gone for a week. But I'm hoping to rejoin the conversation when I return.

Until then.....

**GregJDS** · 08-03-2009, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by honedright

Gosh Jim...what makes you think that this "democratically elected government" is so much more able to solve the problem than it's people?

Do you consider us THAT incompetent?

YouTube - Bill Richardson on Government and Rights

**GregJDS** · 08-03-2009, 01:14 PM

[QUOTE=AussiePostie;429550]
As I have said before I cannot understand the "dog eat dog", "sod you jack I,m allright" mentallity of today,s society.

QUOTE]

This mentality is morally wrong, however you cannot keep fixing someone if they keep posioning themselves. It is people responsability to care for their own health. To take it to one bad extreme is to "sod you jack, im alright" in every case. To take it to another bad extreme is to pour huge ammounts of compassion and resources at people continulally picking up after their mistakes, so much so that you retard their development in being able to look after themselves. There must be a time when you give up on helping someone becuse helping them drags you down, but to not help them at all to start with is also foolishness because like you know, that could be you in need.

Does that make sense??? That there should be a time for "sod you jack, weve helped you as much as resources will allow but you are actually pulling your health in the other direction, this is turning out to be a waste of resources".

**GregJDS** · 08-03-2009, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bruno

Ok leaving the emotional arguments at the door for a while: we have a system where the government simply pays the bill (well most of it. we still pay a teeny amount) and there are no profit driven insurance providers and massive amounts of lawyers who need to get paid. This makes our system cheaper than the US system (*).

Belgium has excellent care, and at the same time I pay less than you, have full coverage incl dental, and everybody has that same level of care.

Now, if the US could somehow find a way to eliminate the need for hordes of lawyers and insurance companies that want ever growing profits, then you could arrive at the same level of cost as we do.

So the question then becomes: without socializing the cost of healthcare (not the actual provision of it, which is still private) how do you get rid of the hordes of lawyers and the scum that play no active role in medicare yet who suck up thousands of your dollars per year?

(*) there are insurance providers, and they cover things like upgrading to a single room in the hospital instead of double room, lasik treatment, and other stuff that is either not relevant to a medical procedure, or not related to a procedure with a medical justification.

EDIT: Just to clarify my point I made this drawing.

To gain a moral and just system over the system first you must have finances donated voluntarily, you cannot have a moral and just system for all if the method for the instigation of that system is unjust and immoral.

YouTube - Rep. Joe Hoeffel Taxes are Voluntary

**JMS** · 08-03-2009, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by AussiePostie

JMS have you not yourself just "assumed" that I do not know what I am talking about?

So why have you waited for the government to twist your arm, to help your fellow man?

It neither takes a genius nor an assumption to understand that you can not know the hearts and minds and personal experiences of us who do not believe that a national health care is the way to go.

No one has waited when they know their help is needed. If this lady in the video had opened her eyes and her mouth sooner someone would've stepped forward to help. This I am certain of. We are not in the habit of letting our fellow citizens die in the streets.

**JimmyHAD** · 08-03-2009, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by JMS

I
No one has waited when they know their help is needed. If this lady in the video had opened her eyes and her mouth sooner someone would've stepped forward to help. This I am certain of. We are not in the habit of letting our fellow citizens die in the streets.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...ymuFL9dHZiuS2w

**JMS** · 08-03-2009, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...ymuFL9dHZiuS2w

And while her family was waiting for the insurance company to get off of their duff why wasn't the mother and father harrassing the doctors until they did the transplant or call every charity organisation and every person they know, or have a fundraising drive to get the money they needed to get the transplant done?

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